5 ms·

Tesla ordered by auto regulators to provide data on ‘Elon mode’ configuration

47 points by gslin 3y ago

xNeil 3y ago
In the case of Twitter/X, 'Elon mode' was simply a testing configuration. I don't see why it would be any different in Tesla.
- Xylakant 3y ago
  Even if it is a testing configuration, it has no place in code that is deployed to vehicles that drive on public roads, much less being enabled on cars that drive on public roads, without prior special approval - which is what’s under investigation. I am not a test subject.
  - DoingIsLearning 3y ago
    For completeness I've seen a fair share of Infotainment units with development/test modes in production. The main difference is as far as I know those have a fairly segregate gap between cockpit infotainment and safety critical vehicle functions, including separate CAN buses and CAN gateways. With Tesla I am not sure as they seem to have thrown away every lesson in Automotive design and started from scratch.
    - Xylakant 3y ago
      I have no issue with infotainment systems with development, beta, test modes in vehicles on the road as long as the infotainment system is not essential to safe operation of the vehicle.
      - DoingIsLearning 3y ago
        My point exactly, entirely unclear to me if that separation happens with Tesla.
        Xylakant 3y ago
        As far as I remember, the infotainment screen and menus are used for operations related to driving the car, such as wiper controls. I don’t own a Tesla nor do I drive one, so I may be wrong. I personally would consider that a lack of separation. In this case, however, the question is irrelevant - the FSD system is clearly part of operating the vehicle, it’s safety relevant and not there for infotainment.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  Except until forced to, the Tesla default nag mode was "one alert per fifteen MINUTES". All their marketing (I'm sorry, I forgot, Tesla doesn't do marketing) is all about the safety of FSD/AP and their vehicles in general. The reality is very much "we have to be dragged kicking and screaming into most safety improvements".
  - thejazzman 3y ago
    I'm no fan of Tesla [anymore] but as an owner since 2015 I've never gone more than 2 minutes without a nag. And it's a rather shitty system in general considering my hands are always on the wheel and I have to constantly manually apply resistance. So maybe don't hate on a theoretical 15m window. Sounds kind of amazing. It's not like the car doesn't constantly demands you take over outside of this nag...
  - sidibe 3y ago
    > we have to be dragged kicking and screaming into most safety improvements tesla.com/autopilot doesn't hide this. The video that's the main feature of the page (from many years ago) starts out saying the person in driver seat is only there for legal reasons. It's ridiculous what they've gotten away with.
  - eclipxe 3y ago
    That's not true. It is not one alert per fifteen minutes. Where did you get that info?
    - FireBeyond 3y ago
      "Until forced to". 2016 it was fifteen minutes. 2017, it was reduced to five minutes. And from then down to where it is now. > One of the findings was alarming. According to the NTSB, an agency that rarely investigates auto accidents and usually spends years delving into plane crashes: "[d]uring the last 41 minutes of [Joshua] Brown's trip, the Model S was in Autopilot for 37.5 minutes …. Brown had his hands off the wheel for a total of 37 minutes during the time the car was in Autopilot." > "The Model S displayed the visual warning 'hold steering wheel' seven times during the trip."
- ncallaway 3y ago
  Well, test configurations on Twitter are one thing. Test configurations on the public roadways make everyone around the vehicle an unwilling participant in that testing configuration. Having a testing configuration doesn’t strike me as a problem, but it seems like it would be very important that the testing configuration be managed very carefully, and only applied to the appropriate vehicles that are intended to be operated under testing conditions.
  - moralestapia 3y ago
    >Test configurations on the public roadways make everyone around the vehicle an unwilling participant in that testing configuration. Why do people fail/refuse to grasp this really simple thing?
    - osuairt 3y ago
      Because they just parrot whatever Elon tells them to, they fall for his schtick. National Highway Transportation Administration is responsible for public safety in these matters, and will investigate the situation, and they will make a determination. Tired of Elon's psyops shit.
- rasz 3y ago
  Can I drive my car in test configuration where I unplug brakes and stop light? You know - for science!
threeseed 3y ago
It's disappointing that the NHTSA is allowing details to be sealed. If there is a cheat code and it has been potentially leaked by employees the public surely has a right to know about it.
- bandergirl 3y ago
  Each Tesla is connected to an account and therefore a person. Just like they can push OTA and enable in-car purchases, they can enable certain modes for certain people. I don’t think that there’s a hidden command to do so from the dashboard, but surely they can do it remotely. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a “if user === elon” condition just like on Twitter
  - mvdtnz 3y ago
    Your post is total speculation. I agree with the parent comment, it's disappointing that whatever it happening here is not making it past the NHTSA into the public.
    - bandergirl 3y ago
      So is everything around this mode. It came out from a hacker who found it in the code. For a long time people have been altering and delimiting cars, so I don’t think this deserve much news until someone enables it without hacking the car. The original article mentions that it could be enabled via “cheat code” but nothing points towards that, so my hardcoded condition is just as good a speculation. A better article: https://electrek.co/2023/06/22/tesla-autopilot-elon-mode-not-really-called-that/ https://electrek.co/2023/06/22/tesla-autopilot-elon-mode-not...
  - dee-bee 3y ago
    > Each Tesla is connected to an account and therefore a person. Why do people put up with this? Seems absolutely insane to connect a car's functionality to the internet, aside maybe from remote start. Where are the legislators? Where are the regulatory bodies?
bettercallsalad 3y ago
Between this and previous lawsuit against SpaceX, it seems the nation state is coming after him because he might have gone “over the top” too many times. I mean sure these things might be legit at their face value but the selective enforcement and timing of these do seem sus.
perilunar 3y ago
> During the [recent streamed] drive, he observed, the Tesla system nearly blew through a red light, requiring an intervention by Musk who managed to brake in time to avoid any danger. This makes it sound much more dramatic than it was (I watched the video). The car mistook a green arrow for a green light, and started to move forward, and Musk stopped it. It was pretty low key. Musk had his hands off the wheel during the drive because he was holding the phone streaming the video, but he was clearly alert and aware of what the car was doing — that's what the conversation with Elluswamy was mostly about. A nag-free test mode makes a lot of sense for the engineers testing the cars. I don't see anything wrong with that.
- osuairt 3y ago
  It's people like you that Elon hopes will downplay problems for him on social media. The National Highway Transportation Administration is charged with the safety of the public foremost, not Tesla's stock price. They will conduct their investigation, ask for whatever information they want. If it is no big deal, they will say so, not Elon on social media, or you parroting whatever he wants you to.
  - perilunar 3y ago
    1. 'People like me'? What, the ones watching the demo video and not just taking some media hack's word for what happened? 2. I don't care about Tesla's stock price. I don't own any. Don't care about the NHTSA either — not American. 3. I'm not parroting anything — I watched the video before I saw the article, and thought the tone of the article was off.
    - choppaface 3y ago
      Definitely not a low-key incident. There were cars turning left in front of him and a pedestrian near the car. Some people are chill with unsafe driving but it’s important to remember in this case he’s aggressively monetizing his own disregard for safety. This is a step above Uber drivers being jerks.
- benwad 3y ago

47 points by gslin 3y ago

In the case of Twitter/X, 'Elon mode' was simply a testing configuration. I don't see why it would be any different in Tesla.

Xylakant 3y ago
Even if it is a testing configuration, it has no place in code that is deployed to vehicles that drive on public roads, much less being enabled on cars that drive on public roads, without prior special approval - which is what’s under investigation. I am not a test subject.
- DoingIsLearning 3y ago
  For completeness I've seen a fair share of Infotainment units with development/test modes in production. The main difference is as far as I know those have a fairly segregate gap between cockpit infotainment and safety critical vehicle functions, including separate CAN buses and CAN gateways. With Tesla I am not sure as they seem to have thrown away every lesson in Automotive design and started from scratch.
  - Xylakant 3y ago
    I have no issue with infotainment systems with development, beta, test modes in vehicles on the road as long as the infotainment system is not essential to safe operation of the vehicle.
    - DoingIsLearning 3y ago
      My point exactly, entirely unclear to me if that separation happens with Tesla.
      - Xylakant 3y ago
        As far as I remember, the infotainment screen and menus are used for operations related to driving the car, such as wiper controls. I don’t own a Tesla nor do I drive one, so I may be wrong. I personally would consider that a lack of separation. In this case, however, the question is irrelevant - the FSD system is clearly part of operating the vehicle, it’s safety relevant and not there for infotainment.
FireBeyond 3y ago
Except until forced to, the Tesla default nag mode was "one alert per fifteen MINUTES". All their marketing (I'm sorry, I forgot, Tesla doesn't do marketing) is all about the safety of FSD/AP and their vehicles in general. The reality is very much "we have to be dragged kicking and screaming into most safety improvements".
- thejazzman 3y ago
  I'm no fan of Tesla [anymore] but as an owner since 2015 I've never gone more than 2 minutes without a nag. And it's a rather shitty system in general considering my hands are always on the wheel and I have to constantly manually apply resistance. So maybe don't hate on a theoretical 15m window. Sounds kind of amazing. It's not like the car doesn't constantly demands you take over outside of this nag...
- sidibe 3y ago
  > we have to be dragged kicking and screaming into most safety improvements tesla.com/autopilot doesn't hide this. The video that's the main feature of the page (from many years ago) starts out saying the person in driver seat is only there for legal reasons. It's ridiculous what they've gotten away with.
- eclipxe 3y ago
  That's not true. It is not one alert per fifteen minutes. Where did you get that info?
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    "Until forced to". 2016 it was fifteen minutes. 2017, it was reduced to five minutes. And from then down to where it is now. > One of the findings was alarming. According to the NTSB, an agency that rarely investigates auto accidents and usually spends years delving into plane crashes: "[d]uring the last 41 minutes of [Joshua] Brown's trip, the Model S was in Autopilot for 37.5 minutes …. Brown had his hands off the wheel for a total of 37 minutes during the time the car was in Autopilot." > "The Model S displayed the visual warning 'hold steering wheel' seven times during the trip."
ncallaway 3y ago
Well, test configurations on Twitter are one thing. Test configurations on the public roadways make everyone around the vehicle an unwilling participant in that testing configuration. Having a testing configuration doesn’t strike me as a problem, but it seems like it would be very important that the testing configuration be managed very carefully, and only applied to the appropriate vehicles that are intended to be operated under testing conditions.
- moralestapia 3y ago
  >Test configurations on the public roadways make everyone around the vehicle an unwilling participant in that testing configuration. Why do people fail/refuse to grasp this really simple thing?
  - osuairt 3y ago
    Because they just parrot whatever Elon tells them to, they fall for his schtick. National Highway Transportation Administration is responsible for public safety in these matters, and will investigate the situation, and they will make a determination. Tired of Elon's psyops shit.
rasz 3y ago
Can I drive my car in test configuration where I unplug brakes and stop light? You know - for science!

threeseed 3y ago

It's disappointing that the NHTSA is allowing details to be sealed. If there is a cheat code and it has been potentially leaked by employees the public surely has a right to know about it.

bandergirl 3y ago
Each Tesla is connected to an account and therefore a person. Just like they can push OTA and enable in-car purchases, they can enable certain modes for certain people. I don’t think that there’s a hidden command to do so from the dashboard, but surely they can do it remotely. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a “if user === elon” condition just like on Twitter
- mvdtnz 3y ago
  Your post is total speculation. I agree with the parent comment, it's disappointing that whatever it happening here is not making it past the NHTSA into the public.
  - bandergirl 3y ago
    So is everything around this mode. It came out from a hacker who found it in the code. For a long time people have been altering and delimiting cars, so I don’t think this deserve much news until someone enables it without hacking the car. The original article mentions that it could be enabled via “cheat code” but nothing points towards that, so my hardcoded condition is just as good a speculation. A better article: https://electrek.co/2023/06/22/tesla-autopilot-elon-mode-not-really-called-that/ https://electrek.co/2023/06/22/tesla-autopilot-elon-mode-not...
- dee-bee 3y ago
  > Each Tesla is connected to an account and therefore a person. Why do people put up with this? Seems absolutely insane to connect a car's functionality to the internet, aside maybe from remote start. Where are the legislators? Where are the regulatory bodies?

bettercallsalad 3y ago

Between this and previous lawsuit against SpaceX, it seems the nation state is coming after him because he might have gone “over the top” too many times. I mean sure these things might be legit at their face value but the selective enforcement and timing of these do seem sus.

perilunar 3y ago

> During the [recent streamed] drive, he observed, the Tesla system nearly blew through a red light, requiring an intervention by Musk who managed to brake in time to avoid any danger. This makes it sound much more dramatic than it was (I watched the video). The car mistook a green arrow for a green light, and started to move forward, and Musk stopped it. It was pretty low key. Musk had his hands off the wheel during the drive because he was holding the phone streaming the video, but he was clearly alert and aware of what the car was doing — that's what the conversation with Elluswamy was mostly about. A nag-free test mode makes a lot of sense for the engineers testing the cars. I don't see anything wrong with that.

osuairt 3y ago
It's people like you that Elon hopes will downplay problems for him on social media. The National Highway Transportation Administration is charged with the safety of the public foremost, not Tesla's stock price. They will conduct their investigation, ask for whatever information they want. If it is no big deal, they will say so, not Elon on social media, or you parroting whatever he wants you to.
- perilunar 3y ago
  1. 'People like me'? What, the ones watching the demo video and not just taking some media hack's word for what happened? 2. I don't care about Tesla's stock price. I don't own any. Don't care about the NHTSA either — not American. 3. I'm not parroting anything — I watched the video before I saw the article, and thought the tone of the article was off.
  - choppaface 3y ago
    Definitely not a low-key incident. There were cars turning left in front of him and a pedestrian near the car. Some people are chill with unsafe driving but it’s important to remember in this case he’s aggressively monetizing his own disregard for safety. This is a step above Uber drivers being jerks.
benwad 3y ago