3 ms·

I always think about how Ben Carson was one of the most skilled (if not the most skilled) neurosurgeons in the world, so knowledgeable about the human brain and

I always think about how Ben Carson was one of the most skilled (if not the most skilled) neurosurgeons in the world, so knowledgeable about the human brain and so deft at operating on it that he was able to separate conjoined twins in a then-unprecedented procedure... and is also a creationist who believes that the Egyptian pyramids were biblical grain silos.

istjohn 3y ago
Linus Pauling is another example. The only person to ever receive two unshared Nobel prizes, considered one of the top 20 scientists of all time, and he was a huge proponent of megavitamin pseudoscience.
- spondylosaurus 3y ago
  Oh man, I forgot about Pauling... another victim of Nobel disease: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_disease https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_disease
  - defrost 3y ago
    Yet another disease not directly susceptible to deworming. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin#History
- waihtis 3y ago
  "Nobel prize winner and superior neurosurgeon criticized as quacks by two internet users" Perhaps the reason they could stretch their domain expertise so far was precisely because they kept their mind open. "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." - Einstein
  - defrost 3y ago
    Do please try and avoid (deliberate?) bad paraphrasing. Both were widely recognised as more than a bit kooky outside of their core strengths. "When a mind is opened that far, the brain often falls out." - Tim Minchin.
    - waihtis 3y ago
      You are making exactly the same point I was making. * sans the quote from a random comedian
      - defrost 3y ago
        But Pauling didn't successfully "stretch his domain expertise" to vitamin supplements anymore than Carson stretched his to Egyptology. Not to mention Einstein's work as a comedian never really took off.
        waihtis 3y ago
        Either you're trolling or your comprehension is just totally off, but to reiterate the original point was that making breakthroughs in sciences often requires "leaps of faith", which are near impossible to do if you're a textbook rationalist. I didn't make any claims about their domain expertise being cross-domain.
        maxbond 3y ago
        As a neutral observer, my read on this is that they are not trolling or misreading. Their comments seem relevant and accurate. > I didn't make any claims about their domain expertise being cross-domain Maybe you have a different understanding of "cross domain," but they represented what you said fairly. > Perhaps the reason they could stretch their domain expertise so far was precisely because they kept their mind open. (Emphasis added.)
        defrost 3y ago
        At least we have a point of agreement, that being that: "Either you're trolling or your comprehension is just totally off" To return to the beginning you arrived here with the statement that "[Two times] Nobel prize winner and superior[(?)] neurosurgeon criticized as quacks by two internet users" I pointed out bad paraphrasing, both parties had recognised core skills, both famously championed beliefs that had little to no evidence or support. Point being neither of "the two internet users" above accused the subjects of being quacks per se .. just that both had definitely publicly veered into quackery. That's the relevant observation here, a thread about a much lauded elder astrophysicist veering into matters outside off his computational chops, into questions of metallurgy, and not receiving any support from his peers. TBH I'm a fan of the bulk of Paulings work, quantum chemistry, molecular biology, and his promotion (and Russell's) of nuclear disarmament. I attribute his embrace of megavitamin therapy more to his age and aversion to death. Carson seems like a talented enough knife man albeit dimmer than many others I know. You did explicitly state that they both could "stretch their domain expertise 'so far'" which leaves a lot of ambiguity wrt just how far you intended, especially with Pauling who literally had bona fide cross domain credientials (or over lapping credentials in related science fields plus a public voice that lead to his Nobel Peace Prize.) Minchin, FWiW, is a keenly intelligent comedian and lyricist and frequently mixes in in some on point observations from scientific rationalism, philosophy, logic, et al. Additionally, I bear you no ill will (I've exercised no votes here) this may all be a case of two people reading past each other.
  - wredue 3y ago
    “Open mindedness” does not mean to “treat all ideas as being on equal grounds” All it means is to listen. After you listen, if you judge that it’s clearly just some quack trying to Mark Seargant some people (this is clearly what’s happening), then that doesn’t make you “not open minded”.
junofan 3y ago
Yeah but wasn’t Grusch at the NRO investigating UAP? Seems like whistleblowing on UAP is within his domain expertise.
s5300 3y ago
>> that he was able to separate conjoined twins in a then-unprecedented procedure... Didn’t the twins like. Die? This is always brought up. Ben Carson separating twins. But like. They died. Multiple sets of conjoined people he operated on died I think. Why do people always bring this up without mentioning that the twins died To the best of my knowledge Ben Carson is and always has been a giant self aggrandizing douche who definitely has and had equals in his field
- maxbond 3y ago
  According to Wikipedia[1], one of them did survive (but was "profoundly disabled" and "never learned to speak or feed himself") but yeesh, it doesn't seem like a huge success, and their mother regrets electing for the surgery - which makes it seem like the doctors believed they would have survived and lived a reasonably normal life (under the circumstances) without the surgery. If that's the case, then it seems like a total ethical violation to even offer the surgery. But maybe that isn't so and it's her trauma talking there, I don't really know. Carson's Wikipedia article [2] mentions several other sets of twins, one operation resulting in a "normal neurological state," 2 resulting in the death of both twins, and another resulting in one dying and the other being "legally blind and [struggling] to walk." I don't know what to make of all that, but you're right, that is more murky than the narrative I've heard previously. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_and_Benjamin_Binder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_and_Benjamin_Binder [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Carson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Carson
- spondylosaurus 3y ago
  I know with the Iranian twins who died (adult conjoined sisters), they were advised that it was a super risky procedure but wanted to go through with it anyway. Some of the other twins he's operated on had mixed results (i.e., one twin thrived but the other didn't, or both only lived a few years after being separated), but I think at least a few pairs have done pretty well. My understanding is that separating craniopagus twins has a pretty high risk of complication/failure, even when you know what you're doing. I also know for a fact that Carson's pioneered hemispherectomy as treatment for severe childhood seizures, and some of those kids are now happy and healthy adults: https://www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/jessie-hall-medical-miracle-half-brain-removed-johns-hopkins/ https://www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/jessie-hall-medical-m... Don't get me wrong, I don't like the guy as a politician. But he knows his way around a brain.
adolph 3y ago
> . . . Ben Carson was one of the most skilled (if not the most skilled) neurosurgeons in the world . . . and is also a creationist who believes that the Egyptian pyramids were biblical grain silos. There is something to be said about applying Gell-Mann amnesia more broadly than journalism alone. In a speech in 2002, Crichton coined the term "Gell-Mann amnesia effect", after physicist Murray Gell-Mann. He used this term to describe the phenomenon of experts believing news articles written on topics outside of their fields of expertise, yet acknowledging that articles written in the same publication within their fields of expertise are error-ridden and full of misunderstanding. . . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Crichton#GellMannAmnesiaEffect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Crichton#GellMannAmnes...

istjohn 3y ago

Linus Pauling is another example. The only person to ever receive two unshared Nobel prizes, considered one of the top 20 scientists of all time, and he was a huge proponent of megavitamin pseudoscience.

spondylosaurus 3y ago
Oh man, I forgot about Pauling... another victim of Nobel disease: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_disease https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_disease
- defrost 3y ago
  Yet another disease not directly susceptible to deworming. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin#History
waihtis 3y ago
"Nobel prize winner and superior neurosurgeon criticized as quacks by two internet users" Perhaps the reason they could stretch their domain expertise so far was precisely because they kept their mind open. "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." - Einstein
- defrost 3y ago
  Do please try and avoid (deliberate?) bad paraphrasing. Both were widely recognised as more than a bit kooky outside of their core strengths. "When a mind is opened that far, the brain often falls out." - Tim Minchin.
  - waihtis 3y ago
    You are making exactly the same point I was making. * sans the quote from a random comedian
    - defrost 3y ago
      But Pauling didn't successfully "stretch his domain expertise" to vitamin supplements anymore than Carson stretched his to Egyptology. Not to mention Einstein's work as a comedian never really took off.
      - waihtis 3y ago
        Either you're trolling or your comprehension is just totally off, but to reiterate the original point was that making breakthroughs in sciences often requires "leaps of faith", which are near impossible to do if you're a textbook rationalist. I didn't make any claims about their domain expertise being cross-domain.
        maxbond 3y ago
        As a neutral observer, my read on this is that they are not trolling or misreading. Their comments seem relevant and accurate. > I didn't make any claims about their domain expertise being cross-domain Maybe you have a different understanding of "cross domain," but they represented what you said fairly. > Perhaps the reason they could stretch their domain expertise so far was precisely because they kept their mind open. (Emphasis added.)
        defrost 3y ago
        At least we have a point of agreement, that being that: "Either you're trolling or your comprehension is just totally off" To return to the beginning you arrived here with the statement that "[Two times] Nobel prize winner and superior[(?)] neurosurgeon criticized as quacks by two internet users" I pointed out bad paraphrasing, both parties had recognised core skills, both famously championed beliefs that had little to no evidence or support. Point being neither of "the two internet users" above accused the subjects of being quacks per se .. just that both had definitely publicly veered into quackery. That's the relevant observation here, a thread about a much lauded elder astrophysicist veering into matters outside off his computational chops, into questions of metallurgy, and not receiving any support from his peers. TBH I'm a fan of the bulk of Paulings work, quantum chemistry, molecular biology, and his promotion (and Russell's) of nuclear disarmament. I attribute his embrace of megavitamin therapy more to his age and aversion to death. Carson seems like a talented enough knife man albeit dimmer than many others I know. You did explicitly state that they both could "stretch their domain expertise 'so far'" which leaves a lot of ambiguity wrt just how far you intended, especially with Pauling who literally had bona fide cross domain credientials (or over lapping credentials in related science fields plus a public voice that lead to his Nobel Peace Prize.) Minchin, FWiW, is a keenly intelligent comedian and lyricist and frequently mixes in in some on point observations from scientific rationalism, philosophy, logic, et al. Additionally, I bear you no ill will (I've exercised no votes here) this may all be a case of two people reading past each other.
- wredue 3y ago
  “Open mindedness” does not mean to “treat all ideas as being on equal grounds” All it means is to listen. After you listen, if you judge that it’s clearly just some quack trying to Mark Seargant some people (this is clearly what’s happening), then that doesn’t make you “not open minded”.

junofan 3y ago

Yeah but wasn’t Grusch at the NRO investigating UAP? Seems like whistleblowing on UAP is within his domain expertise.

s5300 3y ago

>> that he was able to separate conjoined twins in a then-unprecedented procedure... Didn’t the twins like. Die? This is always brought up. Ben Carson separating twins. But like. They died. Multiple sets of conjoined people he operated on died I think. Why do people always bring this up without mentioning that the twins died To the best of my knowledge Ben Carson is and always has been a giant self aggrandizing douche who definitely has and had equals in his field

maxbond 3y ago
According to Wikipedia[1], one of them did survive (but was "profoundly disabled" and "never learned to speak or feed himself") but yeesh, it doesn't seem like a huge success, and their mother regrets electing for the surgery - which makes it seem like the doctors believed they would have survived and lived a reasonably normal life (under the circumstances) without the surgery. If that's the case, then it seems like a total ethical violation to even offer the surgery. But maybe that isn't so and it's her trauma talking there, I don't really know. Carson's Wikipedia article [2] mentions several other sets of twins, one operation resulting in a "normal neurological state," 2 resulting in the death of both twins, and another resulting in one dying and the other being "legally blind and [struggling] to walk." I don't know what to make of all that, but you're right, that is more murky than the narrative I've heard previously. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_and_Benjamin_Binder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_and_Benjamin_Binder [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Carson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Carson
spondylosaurus 3y ago
I know with the Iranian twins who died (adult conjoined sisters), they were advised that it was a super risky procedure but wanted to go through with it anyway. Some of the other twins he's operated on had mixed results (i.e., one twin thrived but the other didn't, or both only lived a few years after being separated), but I think at least a few pairs have done pretty well. My understanding is that separating craniopagus twins has a pretty high risk of complication/failure, even when you know what you're doing. I also know for a fact that Carson's pioneered hemispherectomy as treatment for severe childhood seizures, and some of those kids are now happy and healthy adults: https://www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/jessie-hall-medical-miracle-half-brain-removed-johns-hopkins/ https://www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/jessie-hall-medical-m... Don't get me wrong, I don't like the guy as a politician. But he knows his way around a brain.

adolph 3y ago

> . . . Ben Carson was one of the most skilled (if not the most skilled) neurosurgeons in the world . . . and is also a creationist who believes that the Egyptian pyramids were biblical grain silos. There is something to be said about applying Gell-Mann amnesia more broadly than journalism alone. In a speech in 2002, Crichton coined the term "Gell-Mann amnesia effect", after physicist Murray Gell-Mann. He used this term to describe the phenomenon of experts believing news articles written on topics outside of their fields of expertise, yet acknowledging that articles written in the same publication within their fields of expertise are error-ridden and full of misunderstanding. . . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Crichton#GellMannAmnesiaEffect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Crichton#GellMannAmnes...