4 ms·

I don't think I understand your point, but to be clear: I'm a man, and I like women. My like of women extends to not wanting them to be treated like beer-serv

I don't think I understand your point, but to be clear: I'm a man, and I like women. My like of women extends to not wanting them to be treated like beer-servants and told that they aren't welcome as equals at a coding event, because it would make me feel awful if someone did those things to me. Empathy allows you to try to work out how something might feel from someone else's perspective, and is what should be used when trying to work out how to apologize for inadvertent offense.

dudeguy999 15y ago
I go to Octoberfest events where sexy female beer servers are advertised. A lot of women seem to attend as well.
- msbarnett 15y ago
  That Oktoberfest isn't an industry event catering to professionals is no small difference.
  - dudeguy999 15y ago
    Is it possible to have a programming event with an unprofessional attitude, or is that not allowed anymore?
    - msbarnett 15y ago
      It's possible to have any kind of event you want. But you are not immune to the consequences of your actions. It should be no surprise that many professionals do not enjoy having their industry associated in the public's mind with juvenile, unprofessional antics and socially unacceptable behaviours, and will be quick to tell you so.
toomuchtodo 15y ago
This is my problem with this issue in general. They are not beer servants. They are workers being paid to do a job.Its an event where women are paid to bring you a beverage. Will you rally against Friday's, Hooter's, and Buffalo Wild Wings next? I have empathy; I also understand that you don't have to work at a job bringing beer to coders if you don't want to.
- scate 15y ago
  If they are workers being paid to do a job, why is their gender even mentioned in the flyer?
nirvdrum 15y ago
There's a big difference between understanding how something might offend someone else and equally being offended by it. I wasn't offended by this. I ran it by my wife, who happens to also be a programmer, and she wasn't offended by it either. Are we wrong or bad people? I mean, we see how others might be offended by it, so there's some level of empathy, but we're not grabbing our pitchforks over it. On the other hand, we have friends that love bartending. The insinuation that they're not as good or equal to someone who wants to go into programming, or are nothing more than "beer-servants", could be construed as offensive as well. I'm guessing you're drawing from different experiences, so I'm not going to attribute malice to it. But these sorts of things have the ability to spin rapidly out of control.
- scate 15y ago
  When you say that you "ran it by your wife who happens to be a programmer and she wasn't offended by it either", are you then saying that your wife must then have a proxy for all women? That all women must then agree with your wife's point of view? Because she apparently is not offended, therefore no other woman should be offended? If she thinks it's ok then it must be ok because she's a woman? I wonder how many times this has been used against women? I know someone who is ok with this so therefore your argument is invalid.

dudeguy999 15y ago

I go to Octoberfest events where sexy female beer servers are advertised. A lot of women seem to attend as well.

msbarnett 15y ago
That Oktoberfest isn't an industry event catering to professionals is no small difference.
- dudeguy999 15y ago
  Is it possible to have a programming event with an unprofessional attitude, or is that not allowed anymore?
  - msbarnett 15y ago
    It's possible to have any kind of event you want. But you are not immune to the consequences of your actions. It should be no surprise that many professionals do not enjoy having their industry associated in the public's mind with juvenile, unprofessional antics and socially unacceptable behaviours, and will be quick to tell you so.

toomuchtodo 15y ago

This is my problem with this issue in general. They are not beer servants. They are workers being paid to do a job.Its an event where women are paid to bring you a beverage. Will you rally against Friday's, Hooter's, and Buffalo Wild Wings next? I have empathy; I also understand that you don't have to work at a job bringing beer to coders if you don't want to.

scate 15y ago
If they are workers being paid to do a job, why is their gender even mentioned in the flyer?

nirvdrum 15y ago

There's a big difference between understanding how something might offend someone else and equally being offended by it. I wasn't offended by this. I ran it by my wife, who happens to also be a programmer, and she wasn't offended by it either. Are we wrong or bad people? I mean, we see how others might be offended by it, so there's some level of empathy, but we're not grabbing our pitchforks over it. On the other hand, we have friends that love bartending. The insinuation that they're not as good or equal to someone who wants to go into programming, or are nothing more than "beer-servants", could be construed as offensive as well. I'm guessing you're drawing from different experiences, so I'm not going to attribute malice to it. But these sorts of things have the ability to spin rapidly out of control.

scate 15y ago
When you say that you "ran it by your wife who happens to be a programmer and she wasn't offended by it either", are you then saying that your wife must then have a proxy for all women? That all women must then agree with your wife's point of view? Because she apparently is not offended, therefore no other woman should be offended? If she thinks it's ok then it must be ok because she's a woman? I wonder how many times this has been used against women? I know someone who is ok with this so therefore your argument is invalid.