4 ms·

The alternative is to realize why it was offensive instead of just that people got offended in some abstract sense that is unrelated to anything you can compreh

The alternative is to realize why it was offensive instead of just that people got offended in some abstract sense that is unrelated to anything you can comprehend. For bonus points, further show enough empathy that you realize that what you said now offends you, too, culminating in some kind of "Damn, I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that" apology.

toomuchtodo 15y ago
And what if it doesn't offend them? Just because it offends you doesn't mean it should condemn them. Men like women. Men are, speaking factually, the extreme majority in the tech industry. Don't be shocked if your values don't match those of others.
- nirvdrum 15y ago
  Upvoted. And I just wanted to give some encouragement. It's become commonplace here to get downvoted not because you're belligerent or off-topic, but simply because you hold an opposing viewpoint. Please don't let that discourage you from participating in conversations here.
  - toomuchtodo 15y ago
    Thank you! I don't feel like I'm being sexist at all. Scoot didn't say "HEH! We have naked women bringing you beer!" They said "We're having women server you beer". This is a perk for some men. What's the problem? Women coders/developers are sexist and don't want to be served beer by women? So be it. I, as a man, will happily serve those women who feel offended in the same garb the women will be serving men.
    - natrius 15y ago
      It's not an inclusive way to advertise an event. Making a minority in a community feel like an event isn't really intended for them is bad.
      - nirvdrum 15y ago
        Honestly, when these sorts of things happen, I'd love for every man in the world to just shut up for a minute. I have a hard time stomaching this whacked out form chivalry where men somehow have to fight on behalf of women because they're unable to defend themselves. I understand it's of far purer intent, but it seems just as sexist to me. Actually, it seems worse because it has a tinge of hypocrisy to it. I'd much rather get a woman's reaction to it in an environment where she feels safe to speak her mind (and the Internet provides some pretty good avenues for this).
        marshray 15y ago
        I've been to a tech conference that started with a few women in attendance and they'd basically all walked out by mid-afternoon. It was a tech conference with alcohol like this one. As the day went on, the men were getting drunker and drunker. Some women left out of concern for their personal safety. How's that for a woman's reaction?
        nirvdrum 15y ago
        Honest and helpful. Thanks.
        natrius 15y ago
        My position is mostly selfish. I care about myself and I care about my future children. For myself, I'd like more women to show up to tech events because I generally enjoy mixed company. For my future children, I'd like them to feel comfortable in any industry they find interesting. (I also have that desire for most people in general, but it's particularly poignant when I think about potential children.) There's little chivalry involved here. The advertisement for this event makes the tech industry worse for me. As a side note, only considering the input of women on this issue is problematic when so few are involved in the first place.
        nirvdrum 15y ago
        That's fair. Although we really needn't limit ourselves to only women currently in tech. It's just hard to get a woman's perspective on the matter, which I think would be highly elucidating, when there's so many vocal guys offended on their behalf.
  - natep 15y ago
    I can somewhat understand the downvoters in this case. The discussion at hand is "should we accept objectification of women in the tech industry" with opinions ranging from "No, nothing even resembling that" (paraphrased) to "It's not that big a deal"[1]. To those closer to the first stance, we don't want those kinds of opinions to gain traction here, in this community. I've done that by commenting, others by downvoting. Ideally, every comment would get a response, but there are more of these "it's not a big deal" than there are original ideas being expressed. Really, the top comment[2] should be enough to convince you that this was not an OK move on API Jam's part. [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3731608 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3731608 [2] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3731725 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3731725
- cjbprime 15y ago
  I don't think I understand your point, but to be clear: I'm a man, and I like women. My like of women extends to not wanting them to be treated like beer-servants and told that they aren't welcome as equals at a coding event, because it would make me feel awful if someone did those things to me. Empathy allows you to try to work out how something might feel from someone else's perspective, and is what should be used when trying to work out how to apologize for inadvertent offense.
  - dudeguy999 15y ago
    I go to Octoberfest events where sexy female beer servers are advertised. A lot of women seem to attend as well.
    - msbarnett 15y ago
      That Oktoberfest isn't an industry event catering to professionals is no small difference.
      - dudeguy999 15y ago
        Is it possible to have a programming event with an unprofessional attitude, or is that not allowed anymore?
        msbarnett 15y ago
        It's possible to have any kind of event you want. But you are not immune to the consequences of your actions. It should be no surprise that many professionals do not enjoy having their industry associated in the public's mind with juvenile, unprofessional antics and socially unacceptable behaviours, and will be quick to tell you so.
  - toomuchtodo 15y ago
    This is my problem with this issue in general. They are not beer servants. They are workers being paid to do a job.Its an event where women are paid to bring you a beverage. Will you rally against Friday's, Hooter's, and Buffalo Wild Wings next? I have empathy; I also understand that you don't have to work at a job bringing beer to coders if you don't want to.
- Czarnian 15y ago
  You are correct. Most men like women. However, there is a time and place for men to express their admiration for women. An event like this (as represented to prospective sponsors) is neither.
- Symmetry 15y ago
  Maybe this can help explain. My recent ex-girlfriend is female, but is also bisexual and so likes women almost as much as I do. She was perfectly happy to comment on the attractiveness of the waitstaff to me (male or female), and appreciated when I did likewise to her. She'd be perfectly fine with a social event advertising attractive female waiters. I think she might even have been happy about the prospect of attractive female waitstaff at a hackathon too (she's also a programmer). Listing the staff under the category of "Women" though, with the implication that these were going to be the only women at the event. And that would really piss her off.
byrneseyeview 15y ago
Paul Graham has a nice essay on this topic: http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html Things that are "offensive" tend to change a lot, compared to e.g. things that are "incorrect." I've found that the best mental model is that they're intellectual allergies. I wouldn't knowingly serve someone a dish he was allergic to, and I'd apologize if I did it by accident, but I wouldn't feel ashamed. And my mental model would have to a running list of common allergies, not an over-arching theory of misfiring immune system reactions. I mean, let's try this out: can you tell me why you, personally, are offended by depictions of The Prophet? What about a picture of two men holding hands? Or an insinuation that the Pharaoh is not, in fact, a god? There's just too big a cognitive burden to reverse-engineer everybody else's cultural or intellectual allergies. I'd prefer to work around them.

toomuchtodo 15y ago

And what if it doesn't offend them? Just because it offends you doesn't mean it should condemn them. Men like women. Men are, speaking factually, the extreme majority in the tech industry. Don't be shocked if your values don't match those of others.

nirvdrum 15y ago
Upvoted. And I just wanted to give some encouragement. It's become commonplace here to get downvoted not because you're belligerent or off-topic, but simply because you hold an opposing viewpoint. Please don't let that discourage you from participating in conversations here.
- toomuchtodo 15y ago
  Thank you! I don't feel like I'm being sexist at all. Scoot didn't say "HEH! We have naked women bringing you beer!" They said "We're having women server you beer". This is a perk for some men. What's the problem? Women coders/developers are sexist and don't want to be served beer by women? So be it. I, as a man, will happily serve those women who feel offended in the same garb the women will be serving men.
  - natrius 15y ago
    It's not an inclusive way to advertise an event. Making a minority in a community feel like an event isn't really intended for them is bad.
    - nirvdrum 15y ago
      Honestly, when these sorts of things happen, I'd love for every man in the world to just shut up for a minute. I have a hard time stomaching this whacked out form chivalry where men somehow have to fight on behalf of women because they're unable to defend themselves. I understand it's of far purer intent, but it seems just as sexist to me. Actually, it seems worse because it has a tinge of hypocrisy to it. I'd much rather get a woman's reaction to it in an environment where she feels safe to speak her mind (and the Internet provides some pretty good avenues for this).
      - marshray 15y ago
        I've been to a tech conference that started with a few women in attendance and they'd basically all walked out by mid-afternoon. It was a tech conference with alcohol like this one. As the day went on, the men were getting drunker and drunker. Some women left out of concern for their personal safety. How's that for a woman's reaction?
        nirvdrum 15y ago
        Honest and helpful. Thanks.
      - natrius 15y ago
        My position is mostly selfish. I care about myself and I care about my future children. For myself, I'd like more women to show up to tech events because I generally enjoy mixed company. For my future children, I'd like them to feel comfortable in any industry they find interesting. (I also have that desire for most people in general, but it's particularly poignant when I think about potential children.) There's little chivalry involved here. The advertisement for this event makes the tech industry worse for me. As a side note, only considering the input of women on this issue is problematic when so few are involved in the first place.
        nirvdrum 15y ago
        That's fair. Although we really needn't limit ourselves to only women currently in tech. It's just hard to get a woman's perspective on the matter, which I think would be highly elucidating, when there's so many vocal guys offended on their behalf.
- natep 15y ago
  I can somewhat understand the downvoters in this case. The discussion at hand is "should we accept objectification of women in the tech industry" with opinions ranging from "No, nothing even resembling that" (paraphrased) to "It's not that big a deal"[1]. To those closer to the first stance, we don't want those kinds of opinions to gain traction here, in this community. I've done that by commenting, others by downvoting. Ideally, every comment would get a response, but there are more of these "it's not a big deal" than there are original ideas being expressed. Really, the top comment[2] should be enough to convince you that this was not an OK move on API Jam's part. [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3731608 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3731608 [2] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3731725 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3731725
cjbprime 15y ago
I don't think I understand your point, but to be clear: I'm a man, and I like women. My like of women extends to not wanting them to be treated like beer-servants and told that they aren't welcome as equals at a coding event, because it would make me feel awful if someone did those things to me. Empathy allows you to try to work out how something might feel from someone else's perspective, and is what should be used when trying to work out how to apologize for inadvertent offense.
- dudeguy999 15y ago
  I go to Octoberfest events where sexy female beer servers are advertised. A lot of women seem to attend as well.
  - msbarnett 15y ago
    That Oktoberfest isn't an industry event catering to professionals is no small difference.
    - dudeguy999 15y ago
      Is it possible to have a programming event with an unprofessional attitude, or is that not allowed anymore?
      - msbarnett 15y ago
        It's possible to have any kind of event you want. But you are not immune to the consequences of your actions. It should be no surprise that many professionals do not enjoy having their industry associated in the public's mind with juvenile, unprofessional antics and socially unacceptable behaviours, and will be quick to tell you so.
- toomuchtodo 15y ago
  This is my problem with this issue in general. They are not beer servants. They are workers being paid to do a job.Its an event where women are paid to bring you a beverage. Will you rally against Friday's, Hooter's, and Buffalo Wild Wings next? I have empathy; I also understand that you don't have to work at a job bringing beer to coders if you don't want to.
Czarnian 15y ago
You are correct. Most men like women. However, there is a time and place for men to express their admiration for women. An event like this (as represented to prospective sponsors) is neither.
Symmetry 15y ago
Maybe this can help explain. My recent ex-girlfriend is female, but is also bisexual and so likes women almost as much as I do. She was perfectly happy to comment on the attractiveness of the waitstaff to me (male or female), and appreciated when I did likewise to her. She'd be perfectly fine with a social event advertising attractive female waiters. I think she might even have been happy about the prospect of attractive female waitstaff at a hackathon too (she's also a programmer). Listing the staff under the category of "Women" though, with the implication that these were going to be the only women at the event. And that would really piss her off.

byrneseyeview 15y ago

Paul Graham has a nice essay on this topic: http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html Things that are "offensive" tend to change a lot, compared to e.g. things that are "incorrect." I've found that the best mental model is that they're intellectual allergies. I wouldn't knowingly serve someone a dish he was allergic to, and I'd apologize if I did it by accident, but I wouldn't feel ashamed. And my mental model would have to a running list of common allergies, not an over-arching theory of misfiring immune system reactions. I mean, let's try this out: can you tell me why you, personally, are offended by depictions of The Prophet? What about a picture of two men holding hands? Or an insinuation that the Pharaoh is not, in fact, a god? There's just too big a cognitive burden to reverse-engineer everybody else's cultural or intellectual allergies. I'd prefer to work around them.