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> If you want a just world, be a Socialist. Read Marx for real. And join the rest of the historically frustrated who will die watching humanity flagellate itsel

by lr1970 3y ago

> If you want a just world, be a Socialist. Read Marx for real. And join the rest of the historically frustrated who will die watching humanity flagellate itself. If there's hope, it's in the proles. Socialism and Marxism were tried in 20-th century several times -- Russia, China, "Socialist Block" of East European countries under Soviet control, Cuba, etc. Somehow every attempt at creating a decent non-capitalist society quickly evolved in horrendous anti-utopia. I am genuinely interested in understanding why Marxism and Socialism never worked out as intended (might be with the exception of small North European countries)?

toomuchtodo 3y ago
In contrast to "Socialism" (Big S), democratic socialism seems to be possible and provides evidence of effectiveness, with the Nordic Model being the reference example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
- skinnymuch 3y ago
  That’s Social Democracy which is just capitalism.
  - nielsbot 3y ago
    Surely "capitalism" and "socialism" aren't binary choices. You can have well-regulated capitalism where excess profits are channeled to help those who would otherwise be left to fend for themselves due to "not winning at capitalism"
    - skinnymuch 3y ago
      That’s just capitalism. Capitalism was never ever without any regulation. Sure technically most things are hybrids, but to act like what almost the entire world isn’t mainly capitalist is incorrect. Also they are sort of binary. The means of production are in the hands of the workers in socialism and in the hands of the bourgeoisie in capitalism.
- buzzert 3y ago
  > a comprehensive welfare state and multi-level collective bargaining based on the economic foundations of social corporatism, and a commitment to private ownership within a market-based mixed economy. What part of this sounds like Socialism, exactly?
skinnymuch 3y ago
Cuba hasn’t fared well? Has socialism been tried without American and western interference? The Nordic countries aren’t socialist. Have you read Marx? What do you find is the issue? I haven’t read too much myself but I don’t see why you think capitalism will keep working out the way it is now when we have never been at this point in history with technology and globalization with the continued western hegemony?
- wkat4242 3y ago
  Cuba hasn't fared well because the US is strangling them with sanctions. The Nordic countries have strong elements from socialism. It's the balance that's the best.
  - jtode 3y ago
    Cuba has fared incredibly, considering.
  - skinnymuch 3y ago
    Have you read Marx or socialist stuff? From the bits I’ve read the Nordic countries have little to do with socialism (means of production). Cuba has seemingly fared really well since you pointed out the issue with the country being handicapped. Cuba has medicine to stop lung cancer I heard. Americans die every day from lung cancer.
jtode 3y ago
Short answer is, humans gonna human. As to whether it's been tried, I would say that the Socialism I'm referring to was implemented quite successfully in the United States in the 30s, and its benefits persisted into approximately the 70s, at which point the cohort which remembered why The New Deal happened had aged out and their children started dismantling all the apparatus in a fever dream of capitalist ideology, which they've been promising would produce a utopia, but which if you look out of any window in the USA, you will has done quite a good job of producing that same anti-utopia you referred to. As I said, humans gonna human. Agent Elrond talked about this in The Matrix. His machine empire perspective was that we don't want to be happy. I think that chaos provides opportunities for opportunists, and there are those who know this and seek to create order, and there are those who know this and seek to create chaos, for exactly the reasons you might suspect. [edit: and then of course, there's the endless herds of prey who do not know this.] If you read 1984, you know that "If there's hope, it's in the proles" is kind of a mantra that Winston repeats to himself throughout the story, and one which ultimately is replaced by a boot crushing a human face, forever. At the same time, Orwell was a Socialist. The 20th Century is a set of chapters in a story that runs back through the centuries, and that endless war that goes hot and cold and on and on is the real story there. To pin the blame for the dystopias of that time on the ideology that ruled over them is to miss the plot; I could as well say that free market economies are inherently dystopic based on the evidence outside your American doorway, and be just as wrong. America struck the right balance for a while, and everyone benefitted, and then the corporate raiders took over, with Ronnie McRaygun as their exuberant figurehead. And they just keep hitting that corporate welfare pipe to keep the party going, but the hangover is coming, boyo, and it's either gonna go socialist or it's gonna go fascist and then socialist. Let's skip the unpleasant part this time. Narrator in 2050: They didn't.
nielsbot 3y ago
Nobody (I don't think) is advocating for absolute socialism and the abolishment of capitalism. And I hope nobody is advocating for the opposite: absolute capitalism. Both leave lots of people in misery. Pointing to the failed examples of socialism and saying it can never work is not a serious argument. Socialism has worked as intended in many places. Look at the nordic countries (as others have mentioned). Features of socialism are good and we should implemented the best parts.
- skinnymuch 3y ago
  Are you saying socialists don’t advocate for socialism? Obviously they do. Why would socialists not want the means of production to be in the hands of the masses? Also what do you think anti-capitalists advocate for? Not capitalism :). The Nordic countries aren’t socialist. They’re capitalism with some welfare.
- jtode 3y ago
  I advocate for the abolishment of capitalism, which happens every time someone sits on their ass and collects dividends. I'm willing to explore the way we would do that on a practical level, but bottom line for me, if someone is sitting in a room somewhere doing nothing that has fuckall to do with my project, fuck them if they get any of the take. I don't care whose daddy their daddy got fucked with a broomstick at the mason lodge by.

by lr1970 3y ago

toomuchtodo 3y ago

In contrast to "Socialism" (Big S), democratic socialism seems to be possible and provides evidence of effectiveness, with the Nordic Model being the reference example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

skinnymuch 3y ago
That’s Social Democracy which is just capitalism.
- nielsbot 3y ago
  Surely "capitalism" and "socialism" aren't binary choices. You can have well-regulated capitalism where excess profits are channeled to help those who would otherwise be left to fend for themselves due to "not winning at capitalism"
  - skinnymuch 3y ago
    That’s just capitalism. Capitalism was never ever without any regulation. Sure technically most things are hybrids, but to act like what almost the entire world isn’t mainly capitalist is incorrect. Also they are sort of binary. The means of production are in the hands of the workers in socialism and in the hands of the bourgeoisie in capitalism.
buzzert 3y ago
> a comprehensive welfare state and multi-level collective bargaining based on the economic foundations of social corporatism, and a commitment to private ownership within a market-based mixed economy. What part of this sounds like Socialism, exactly?

skinnymuch 3y ago

Cuba hasn’t fared well? Has socialism been tried without American and western interference? The Nordic countries aren’t socialist. Have you read Marx? What do you find is the issue? I haven’t read too much myself but I don’t see why you think capitalism will keep working out the way it is now when we have never been at this point in history with technology and globalization with the continued western hegemony?

wkat4242 3y ago
Cuba hasn't fared well because the US is strangling them with sanctions. The Nordic countries have strong elements from socialism. It's the balance that's the best.
- jtode 3y ago
  Cuba has fared incredibly, considering.
- skinnymuch 3y ago
  Have you read Marx or socialist stuff? From the bits I’ve read the Nordic countries have little to do with socialism (means of production). Cuba has seemingly fared really well since you pointed out the issue with the country being handicapped. Cuba has medicine to stop lung cancer I heard. Americans die every day from lung cancer.

jtode 3y ago

Short answer is, humans gonna human. As to whether it's been tried, I would say that the Socialism I'm referring to was implemented quite successfully in the United States in the 30s, and its benefits persisted into approximately the 70s, at which point the cohort which remembered why The New Deal happened had aged out and their children started dismantling all the apparatus in a fever dream of capitalist ideology, which they've been promising would produce a utopia, but which if you look out of any window in the USA, you will has done quite a good job of producing that same anti-utopia you referred to. As I said, humans gonna human. Agent Elrond talked about this in The Matrix. His machine empire perspective was that we don't want to be happy. I think that chaos provides opportunities for opportunists, and there are those who know this and seek to create order, and there are those who know this and seek to create chaos, for exactly the reasons you might suspect. [edit: and then of course, there's the endless herds of prey who do not know this.] If you read 1984, you know that "If there's hope, it's in the proles" is kind of a mantra that Winston repeats to himself throughout the story, and one which ultimately is replaced by a boot crushing a human face, forever. At the same time, Orwell was a Socialist. The 20th Century is a set of chapters in a story that runs back through the centuries, and that endless war that goes hot and cold and on and on is the real story there. To pin the blame for the dystopias of that time on the ideology that ruled over them is to miss the plot; I could as well say that free market economies are inherently dystopic based on the evidence outside your American doorway, and be just as wrong. America struck the right balance for a while, and everyone benefitted, and then the corporate raiders took over, with Ronnie McRaygun as their exuberant figurehead. And they just keep hitting that corporate welfare pipe to keep the party going, but the hangover is coming, boyo, and it's either gonna go socialist or it's gonna go fascist and then socialist. Let's skip the unpleasant part this time. Narrator in 2050: They didn't.

nielsbot 3y ago

Nobody (I don't think) is advocating for absolute socialism and the abolishment of capitalism. And I hope nobody is advocating for the opposite: absolute capitalism. Both leave lots of people in misery. Pointing to the failed examples of socialism and saying it can never work is not a serious argument. Socialism has worked as intended in many places. Look at the nordic countries (as others have mentioned). Features of socialism are good and we should implemented the best parts.

skinnymuch 3y ago
Are you saying socialists don’t advocate for socialism? Obviously they do. Why would socialists not want the means of production to be in the hands of the masses? Also what do you think anti-capitalists advocate for? Not capitalism :). The Nordic countries aren’t socialist. They’re capitalism with some welfare.
jtode 3y ago
I advocate for the abolishment of capitalism, which happens every time someone sits on their ass and collects dividends. I'm willing to explore the way we would do that on a practical level, but bottom line for me, if someone is sitting in a room somewhere doing nothing that has fuckall to do with my project, fuck them if they get any of the take. I don't care whose daddy their daddy got fucked with a broomstick at the mason lodge by.