4 ms·

It feels like it's pretty much gameover for free speech in any context. Too much of the population of the world wants rid and it doesn't matter much that they

It feels like it's pretty much gameover for free speech in any context. Too much of the population of the world wants rid and it doesn't matter much that they disagree on precisely which opinions are unacceptable.

cmh89 3y ago
Free speech has never existed. We've always been pushing and pulling against what's acceptable.
- depereo 3y ago
  Absolutely. Causing a stampede or crush being the obvious example. I do get baffled by the absolutionist statements about the freedom of speech. Speech is a side-channel into violence. My country has a censor's office, for example. Some 'speech' is literally illegal to possess. Government ministers aren't free to speak state secrets in public. It's not legal to disclose the names of persons with judicial name suppression. Even parliament representatives can't speak just anything into the parliamentary record. I live in New Zealand. It's not that bad to have limits and structures that enable the majority of real freedoms for people.
  - jadamson 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - vore 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - jadamson 3y ago
        I'm not sure that every country is run by morons who can't understand the concept of per capita, NZ seems pretty special in that regard. I certainly wouldn't want such people having a finger on the censorship button, and for that reason it was very heartening to hear of Ardern's resignation. > "After all, how do you successfully end a war if people are led to believe the reason for its existence is not only legal but noble? How do you tackle climate change if people do not believe it exists? How do you ensure the human rights of others are upheld, when they are subjected to hateful and dangerous rhetoric and ideology?" While antipodean advocates of censorship like to reference violence, it's clear that's not actually where they draw the line. Even if they did, their hatred of violence seems to be very selective: Davidson's comments were meant as a distraction from violence against someone she sees as a valid target [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kellie-Jay_Keen-Minshull#New_Zealand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kellie-Jay_Keen-Minshull#New_Z...
  - cmh89 3y ago
    It's part of the American creation myth that's drilled into our heads as children. The Alien and Sedition Act was passed in 1798 which made it illegal to critique the government. Eugene Debs went to prison for advocating for draft dodging in World War 1. Part of is a lot of folks either can't or wont see the difference between "free speech" and "consequences for your actions". As Americans, we've never had more free speech than we have today. Most of our history is filled with censorship from media to actual human beings being arrested for wearing the wrong clothes. Of course, a lot of those free speech absolutist cheer censorship laws when they are targeted at LGBTQ individuals.
    - pessimizer 3y ago
      > Eugene Debs went to prison for advocating for draft dodging in World War 1. You're trying to rewrite this into a Whig history, but we're obviously backsliding when we're prosecuting people under the Espionage Act.
  - yanderekko 3y ago
    >My country has a censor's office, for example. Some 'speech' is literally illegal to possess. And it's embarrassing. The KiwiFarms exchange with New Zealand after the Brenton Tarrant shooting (are you even allowed to mention his name? Hope I'm not getting you in trouble here) was one of its prouder moments.
- wellthen0 3y ago
  [flagged]
- b59831 3y ago
  [dead]
wellthen0 3y ago
[flagged]
pessimizer 3y ago
> It feels like it's pretty much gameover for free speech in any context. And it's going to go the opposite way that people are expecting. For some reason, the Democratic base has been trained to think that it will be possible for them to impose an authoritarian meritocracy of kind middle-class people using a police force and army largely made up of working-class reactionary quasi-theocrats. When the shit goes down, the neocons will forget that they spent a year or two pretending to care about misgendering while liberals helped them build the Stasi's dream. Instead we'll end up with dictatorship run by a mashup of Reagan, Trump, and Thiel.
- _0ffh 3y ago
  One Charles Haywood is apparently applying for that job.
Rapzid 3y ago
I feel like in the USA at least free speech(as in the constraint placed on the government; aka 1st amendment free speech) is as strong as it's ever been. The government was way up in everyone's business and bedroom just 50 years ago.
kiitos 3y ago
Free speech doesn't mean unrestricted speech. If you say some garbage bullshit, and a platform deletes your garbage bullshit, that's fine.

cmh89 3y ago

Free speech has never existed. We've always been pushing and pulling against what's acceptable.

depereo 3y ago
Absolutely. Causing a stampede or crush being the obvious example. I do get baffled by the absolutionist statements about the freedom of speech. Speech is a side-channel into violence. My country has a censor's office, for example. Some 'speech' is literally illegal to possess. Government ministers aren't free to speak state secrets in public. It's not legal to disclose the names of persons with judicial name suppression. Even parliament representatives can't speak just anything into the parliamentary record. I live in New Zealand. It's not that bad to have limits and structures that enable the majority of real freedoms for people.
- jadamson 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - vore 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - jadamson 3y ago
      I'm not sure that every country is run by morons who can't understand the concept of per capita, NZ seems pretty special in that regard. I certainly wouldn't want such people having a finger on the censorship button, and for that reason it was very heartening to hear of Ardern's resignation. > "After all, how do you successfully end a war if people are led to believe the reason for its existence is not only legal but noble? How do you tackle climate change if people do not believe it exists? How do you ensure the human rights of others are upheld, when they are subjected to hateful and dangerous rhetoric and ideology?" While antipodean advocates of censorship like to reference violence, it's clear that's not actually where they draw the line. Even if they did, their hatred of violence seems to be very selective: Davidson's comments were meant as a distraction from violence against someone she sees as a valid target [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kellie-Jay_Keen-Minshull#New_Zealand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kellie-Jay_Keen-Minshull#New_Z...
- cmh89 3y ago
  It's part of the American creation myth that's drilled into our heads as children. The Alien and Sedition Act was passed in 1798 which made it illegal to critique the government. Eugene Debs went to prison for advocating for draft dodging in World War 1. Part of is a lot of folks either can't or wont see the difference between "free speech" and "consequences for your actions". As Americans, we've never had more free speech than we have today. Most of our history is filled with censorship from media to actual human beings being arrested for wearing the wrong clothes. Of course, a lot of those free speech absolutist cheer censorship laws when they are targeted at LGBTQ individuals.
  - pessimizer 3y ago
    > Eugene Debs went to prison for advocating for draft dodging in World War 1. You're trying to rewrite this into a Whig history, but we're obviously backsliding when we're prosecuting people under the Espionage Act.
- yanderekko 3y ago
  >My country has a censor's office, for example. Some 'speech' is literally illegal to possess. And it's embarrassing. The KiwiFarms exchange with New Zealand after the Brenton Tarrant shooting (are you even allowed to mention his name? Hope I'm not getting you in trouble here) was one of its prouder moments.
wellthen0 3y ago
[flagged]
b59831 3y ago
[dead]

wellthen0 3y ago

[flagged]

pessimizer 3y ago

> It feels like it's pretty much gameover for free speech in any context. And it's going to go the opposite way that people are expecting. For some reason, the Democratic base has been trained to think that it will be possible for them to impose an authoritarian meritocracy of kind middle-class people using a police force and army largely made up of working-class reactionary quasi-theocrats. When the shit goes down, the neocons will forget that they spent a year or two pretending to care about misgendering while liberals helped them build the Stasi's dream. Instead we'll end up with dictatorship run by a mashup of Reagan, Trump, and Thiel.

_0ffh 3y ago
One Charles Haywood is apparently applying for that job.

Rapzid 3y ago

I feel like in the USA at least free speech(as in the constraint placed on the government; aka 1st amendment free speech) is as strong as it's ever been. The government was way up in everyone's business and bedroom just 50 years ago.

kiitos 3y ago

Free speech doesn't mean unrestricted speech. If you say some garbage bullshit, and a platform deletes your garbage bullshit, that's fine.