5 ms·

Trust me, the instant I think "the middlemen" add no value to either side, I'll drop them like a hot potato. The trouble is, they do add value, from my perspec

by cstross 15y ago

Trust me, the instant I think "the middlemen" add no value to either side, I'll drop them like a hot potato. The trouble is, they do add value, from my perspective. But they also add headaches. There is a cost/benefit trade-off here, for artists to evaluate. (Which is why I felt the need to respond to this idiotic article, my gut reaction to which was actually along the lines of "oh no, not this tired old shit again". For values of "tired old shit" that equate to Techcrunch, not BRAT, who at least knows what he's talking about, unlike the TC journalist who's using him to make a point while disingenuously refusing to engage with the real nature of the problem.)

mdda 15y ago
Could you give some examples of the value added by middlemen? And the headaches?
- dsr_ 15y ago
  He wrote at length about it here: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/04/common-misconceptions-about-pu-1.html http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/04/common-m...
- commieneko 15y ago
  What middlemen in any transaction usually provide is a pre-existing customer base and fulfillment. In the past you could arrange to purchase your novels, magazines, newspapers, whatever, directly from the creators, with each setting up a long distance financial arrangement ... or you could go into the local bookstore and buy it there. In some cases, such as film or broadcast, the middleman is providing the venue. Not every creator can afford their own broadcast tower and transmitter and few people own their own 35mm projector. Of course, now times are changing, and many people do own the modern digital equivalent of all those things, and many authors do have their own distribution and marketing channels. Middlemen still provide a pre-existing financial arrangement. As a consumer I don't really want to set up a credit card account with every fly-by-night operation on the internet that I might want to purchase from. So places like Apple and Amazon and Paypal still have a place. And in the international marketplace, especially in media sales, local licensors often provide the value of localization. Subtitles, dubbing, translation, etc. It's only been 10 - 15 years since significant numbers of people have been able to purchase stuff online, and there are still issues with bandwidth for some media. The world is changing and adapting to the new normal. Congratulations, you are living through an important period of history. Expect some bumps, inconvenience and inefficiencies while humanity readjusts to a couple of thousand years of dealing with physical media.
  - mdda 15y ago
    Thanks - it wasn't clear who the middlemen were : The uncooperative website, someone distributing to the website, the music publisher, the artist's agents, etc...
  - chrischen 15y ago
    You just described middlemen in general and didn't explain how these music publishing middlemen still add value.
ArtB 15y ago
Sorry, but what value do publishers provide for _digital_ products? I mean for paperback copies I can understand the value (they will have printers closer to their market for reduced costs, better local promotion etc), but for ebook versions what do they provide you?
- timwiseman 15y ago
  A good publisher can provide editing, formatting, graphics, advertising, and localization. They can also add their stamp of approval to it (I know that this means nothing to a lot of buyers, but it does mean something to some. I have heard a couple of readers of mass fiction rave about trust Del Rey books to be worth reading because they trust Del Rey), and an established publisher can more easily get it into print if/when it is worth doing. Of course an author can do all of those themselves or hire others to handle those steps for them. But it is certainly value-added to have all of that done for you.
- jasonlotito 15y ago
  It's listed in a comment right above yours, but was posted after your comment. Here are his reasons: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/04/common-misconceptions-about-pu-1.html http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/04/common-m...
  - ArtB 15y ago
    Haven't read them all but just skimmed, but I still don't see why he can't just sell his DRMed PDFs of books he writes through some third-party.
- scott_s 15y ago
  I think the key point you're missing is that ebooks still need much of the same work done that physical books do.
secretwhistle 15y ago
Charles, I'm the author of the idiotic article and I thought I'd wade in and explain my comment about not wanting to hear another rundown on why the system is the way it is. Over at Techdirt, a site I've been reading for a half-decade and contributing to for nearly a year, IP issues compose probably 80-90% of the posts. The reason I inserted that particular paragraph was to head off discussion centered around rehashing multi-national licensing nightmares and instead get some sort of explanation as to why this isn't being fixed faster. Obviously, there is a multitude of systems already in place and extricating ourselves from this won't be easy and won't happen quickly. But rather than working to streamline these processes, representatives of content industries are spending a great deal of their time (and lobbying power) trying to do the impossible: stamp out piracy. Most people don't need an excuse to pirate content, but situations like this push people who otherwise would have purchased something into finding an alternate route or doing without, neither of which will make the labels (or studios or whatever) happy. There's a lot of numbers thrown around equating each torrent to a lost sale. Actual lost sales due to speed bumps and hurdles in the distribution are rarely discussed by the industry and when they are, they result in horrendous "solutions" like Ultraviolet or the "drive your DVD to the retailer in order to rip a copy to the cloud." So, if I'm ignoring the "why" behind the situation (which I don't believe I am), it's because the point of the article was "Don't cry about piracy if you can't give me an option to buy." We know the system is a tangled mess. We know there are many more middlemen than there needs to be. We (and every time I use "we," I'm speaking broadly from my experience as a writer/reader of Techdirt) don't believe ALL middlemen are useless. Many of them DO add value, but when you've got several middlemen guarding turf in several different locales, all hoping to carve a slice of a digital good, it leads to this. And knowing every detail of "how" and "why" a particular band can't sell a particular album via the internet to you simply because of where you live doesn't change the fact that it's frustrating for fans who want to support artists and, I would imagine, greatly frustrating for the artists themselves, who need all the paying fans they can get. So, we can engage the real nature of the problem, but unless someone towards the top starts slicing away at the undergrowth surrounding worldwide distribution, not much will change. There are some great comments here. I found yours to be very informative as well as the contributions from commieneko and Gfischer. Both raise very good points about this situation. In short, the systems in place can't adjust as quickly as the market does. (Or in some cases, won't.) But back to the point of my post: you (this would be the royal version, not you personally, Charles) really shouldn't be hollering about piracy when you're unable (and in some cases, unwilling) to let would-be paying customers give you their money. (P.S. I don't really consider myself a journalist. I'm sure many, many people would agree with me.)

by cstross 15y ago

mdda 15y ago

Could you give some examples of the value added by middlemen? And the headaches?

dsr_ 15y ago
He wrote at length about it here: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/04/common-misconceptions-about-pu-1.html http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/04/common-m...
commieneko 15y ago
What middlemen in any transaction usually provide is a pre-existing customer base and fulfillment. In the past you could arrange to purchase your novels, magazines, newspapers, whatever, directly from the creators, with each setting up a long distance financial arrangement ... or you could go into the local bookstore and buy it there. In some cases, such as film or broadcast, the middleman is providing the venue. Not every creator can afford their own broadcast tower and transmitter and few people own their own 35mm projector. Of course, now times are changing, and many people do own the modern digital equivalent of all those things, and many authors do have their own distribution and marketing channels. Middlemen still provide a pre-existing financial arrangement. As a consumer I don't really want to set up a credit card account with every fly-by-night operation on the internet that I might want to purchase from. So places like Apple and Amazon and Paypal still have a place. And in the international marketplace, especially in media sales, local licensors often provide the value of localization. Subtitles, dubbing, translation, etc. It's only been 10 - 15 years since significant numbers of people have been able to purchase stuff online, and there are still issues with bandwidth for some media. The world is changing and adapting to the new normal. Congratulations, you are living through an important period of history. Expect some bumps, inconvenience and inefficiencies while humanity readjusts to a couple of thousand years of dealing with physical media.
- mdda 15y ago
  Thanks - it wasn't clear who the middlemen were : The uncooperative website, someone distributing to the website, the music publisher, the artist's agents, etc...
- chrischen 15y ago
  You just described middlemen in general and didn't explain how these music publishing middlemen still add value.

ArtB 15y ago

Sorry, but what value do publishers provide for _digital_ products? I mean for paperback copies I can understand the value (they will have printers closer to their market for reduced costs, better local promotion etc), but for ebook versions what do they provide you?

timwiseman 15y ago
A good publisher can provide editing, formatting, graphics, advertising, and localization. They can also add their stamp of approval to it (I know that this means nothing to a lot of buyers, but it does mean something to some. I have heard a couple of readers of mass fiction rave about trust Del Rey books to be worth reading because they trust Del Rey), and an established publisher can more easily get it into print if/when it is worth doing. Of course an author can do all of those themselves or hire others to handle those steps for them. But it is certainly value-added to have all of that done for you.
jasonlotito 15y ago
It's listed in a comment right above yours, but was posted after your comment. Here are his reasons: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/04/common-misconceptions-about-pu-1.html http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/04/common-m...
- ArtB 15y ago
  Haven't read them all but just skimmed, but I still don't see why he can't just sell his DRMed PDFs of books he writes through some third-party.
scott_s 15y ago
I think the key point you're missing is that ebooks still need much of the same work done that physical books do.

secretwhistle 15y ago

Charles, I'm the author of the idiotic article and I thought I'd wade in and explain my comment about not wanting to hear another rundown on why the system is the way it is. Over at Techdirt, a site I've been reading for a half-decade and contributing to for nearly a year, IP issues compose probably 80-90% of the posts. The reason I inserted that particular paragraph was to head off discussion centered around rehashing multi-national licensing nightmares and instead get some sort of explanation as to why this isn't being fixed faster. Obviously, there is a multitude of systems already in place and extricating ourselves from this won't be easy and won't happen quickly. But rather than working to streamline these processes, representatives of content industries are spending a great deal of their time (and lobbying power) trying to do the impossible: stamp out piracy. Most people don't need an excuse to pirate content, but situations like this push people who otherwise would have purchased something into finding an alternate route or doing without, neither of which will make the labels (or studios or whatever) happy. There's a lot of numbers thrown around equating each torrent to a lost sale. Actual lost sales due to speed bumps and hurdles in the distribution are rarely discussed by the industry and when they are, they result in horrendous "solutions" like Ultraviolet or the "drive your DVD to the retailer in order to rip a copy to the cloud." So, if I'm ignoring the "why" behind the situation (which I don't believe I am), it's because the point of the article was "Don't cry about piracy if you can't give me an option to buy." We know the system is a tangled mess. We know there are many more middlemen than there needs to be. We (and every time I use "we," I'm speaking broadly from my experience as a writer/reader of Techdirt) don't believe ALL middlemen are useless. Many of them DO add value, but when you've got several middlemen guarding turf in several different locales, all hoping to carve a slice of a digital good, it leads to this. And knowing every detail of "how" and "why" a particular band can't sell a particular album via the internet to you simply because of where you live doesn't change the fact that it's frustrating for fans who want to support artists and, I would imagine, greatly frustrating for the artists themselves, who need all the paying fans they can get. So, we can engage the real nature of the problem, but unless someone towards the top starts slicing away at the undergrowth surrounding worldwide distribution, not much will change. There are some great comments here. I found yours to be very informative as well as the contributions from commieneko and Gfischer. Both raise very good points about this situation. In short, the systems in place can't adjust as quickly as the market does. (Or in some cases, won't.) But back to the point of my post: you (this would be the royal version, not you personally, Charles) really shouldn't be hollering about piracy when you're unable (and in some cases, unwilling) to let would-be paying customers give you their money. (P.S. I don't really consider myself a journalist. I'm sure many, many people would agree with me.)