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> In 2018 alone, a bicyclist was killed approximately every third day in the greater Chicago area. Completely insane horrifying stat. The incredible amount of

> In 2018 alone, a bicyclist was killed approximately every third day in the greater Chicago area. Completely insane horrifying stat. The incredible amount of injury and death has been so normalized.

throw9away6 3y ago
[flagged]
taeric 3y ago
Agreed. Is the kind of stat I think I reflexively refuse to believe at face value. :( How did things get that bad?
- Retric 3y ago
  They didn’t someone misread a report, which then got passed around. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37312626 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37312626
  - taeric 3y ago
    Kudos on chasing down the data!
Retric 3y ago
That’s one of those comparisons where the goal is to underestimate the greater Chicago area’s population, but it’s not even an accurate statistic. From 2005 to 2016 Chicago with a population of 2.7 million had between 3 and 8 cycles deaths per year vs 27 to 65 pedestrian deaths and 282 to 487 motorists. https://activetrans.org/sites/files/crash%20report%202018%20V3.pdf https://activetrans.org/sites/files/crash%20report%202018%20... Edit: The closest to 1/3 days I could find was 13 bicycle deaths and 95 pedestrian fatalities totaling to 108 for the region. Which is 1 cyclist death per 28 days out of ~10 million people.
- woodruffw 3y ago
  Chicago's metropolitan area has around 10 million people in it. Are you saying that a cyclist killed every third day with that kind of population is considered an acceptable loss? Edit: for context, NYC alone has a comparable population (versus the entire Chicago MSA) and, despite rising cyclist deaths, still has significantly fewer than ~120 a year[1]. Edit: TFA's source for cycling deaths appears to be incorrect; the actual rate is far below ~120/year. The ~120/year number appears to come from a misreading of total pedestrian and cycling deaths in this report[2]. [1]: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2023/08/07/cyclist-deaths-are-surging-in-nyc https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2023/08/07/cyclist-deaths-are-su... [2]: https://activetrans.org/sites/files/crash%20report%202018%20V3.pdf https://activetrans.org/sites/files/crash%20report%202018%20...
  - piva00 3y ago
    And also: what's the actual number of cyclists and how much do they travel? It's not close to 10 million, so a comparison with just raw population data doesn't really mean much. I guess there aren't many cyclists and they don't bike as much as the Dutch, making this death statistic even more absurd.
  - Retric 3y ago
    I’m saying the statistic is flat out incorrect. I followed the link and the closest I could find was 13 bicycle deaths and 95 pedestrian fatalities totaling to 108 for the region.
    - woodruffw 3y ago
      Thanks; that's my read as well. I'm going to edit my comment.
- Tiktaalik 3y ago
  lol look at the active normalization going on even here in this thread!
  - 3y ago
basisword 3y ago
There are 2-3 fatalities in cars per day in Chicago from what I can see. Both are useless stats without more context. A good comparison might be another city. For example there are approx < 10 cycling deaths per year in London which has decent cycling infrastructure these days.
marcinzm 3y ago
Also a completely false stat. The link goes to a site that links to this: https://activetrans.org/sites/files/crash%20report%202018%20V3.pdf https://activetrans.org/sites/files/crash%20report%202018%20... It among other fun things only goes up to 2016 and was published in mid 2018 (thus could not cover 2018). It also says that only 18 bicyclists were killed in 2016.
pengaru 3y ago
The streets of the greater Chicago area are full of frustrated drivers in a pointless pissing contest seemingly all on the fringe of a road-rage incident. It's like they're all fighting over scraps and the roads are the arena. I could write a short novel describing my childhood bmx experiences there through the 80s-90s, and in 2022 I rode an mtb around all summer during an extended visit. It's just insanity. People there are miserable and angry. It's palpable in how they drive.
- norir 3y ago
  Yes, the missing part of all the transportation debate is how existing driving conditions in many areas make motorists miserable even in the absence of cyclists. There are many people who are driving teetering on the edge of explosive rage (or already well beyond it). Their aggressive behavior spreads out and infects others. All road users are affected. Indeed it is actually likely other motorists who numerically suffer the most from this undercurrent of rage. Motorists just happen to be less vulnerable than cyclists and pedestrians so they don't have the same level of terror that these drivers can evoke in the more vulnerable road users. Unfortunately I don't think these problems can be solved with improved bike infrastructure in most cities (though I'm not opposed to it). I think it has more to do with the continual strain of long commutes and the horrible frustration of driving in traffic. Unless we build a world in which driving long distances is truly optional for the vast majority of citizens, road rage is likely to be pervasive and we will all suffer the consequences.
  - pengaru 3y ago
    I think it's far more than just the long commutes and frustration of driving in traffic. These folks are predisposed to handle those things poorly for myriad reasons, and have established some very dangerous to pedestrians/cyclists driving norms which though illegal, go 100% unpoliced there. It's just very aggressive and driver-prioritized behavior, and it reinforces itself in a positive feedback loop turning many into psychopaths behind the wheel. You can't even safely walk to your car with groceries in IL, the pedestrians are expected to yield to the drivers. If you get in the path of a car in a parking lot, they'll often threateningly closely follow you to try compel you to move out of their way while walking to/from your car. The drivers behave like they all own the place when behind a wheel, of course that mentality manifests as a car vs. car pissing match in traffic. Cyclists don't stand a chance in such a milieu. Back when my family visited me in CA after moving ~15 years ago, it took just ONE day of them driving their rental to get a written warning from the police. Something about a cross-walk where they nearly hit a pedestrian after not stopping before entering the crossing zone to turn at an intersection IIRC. Turned out a police car was stopped at the intersection and witnessed it all go down. They were in complete disbelief and felt the pedestrian should have been watching out for cars, that they were in the right. It's batshit insanity in IL, and I suspect much of the US is like that to varying degrees. CA isn't even that great, but compared to IL I strongly prefer being any of driver/cyclist/pedestrian here than over there. It may seem paradoxical that one wouldn't at least prefer being the driver in driver-prioritized IL but it's unpleasant to drive where everyone you're sharing the road with is being a psychopath.

> In 2018 alone, a bicyclist was killed approximately every third day in the greater Chicago area. Completely insane horrifying stat. The incredible amount of injury and death has been so normalized.

throw9away6 3y ago

[flagged]

taeric 3y ago

Agreed. Is the kind of stat I think I reflexively refuse to believe at face value. :( How did things get that bad?

Retric 3y ago
They didn’t someone misread a report, which then got passed around. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37312626 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37312626
- taeric 3y ago
  Kudos on chasing down the data!

Retric 3y ago

That’s one of those comparisons where the goal is to underestimate the greater Chicago area’s population, but it’s not even an accurate statistic. From 2005 to 2016 Chicago with a population of 2.7 million had between 3 and 8 cycles deaths per year vs 27 to 65 pedestrian deaths and 282 to 487 motorists. https://activetrans.org/sites/files/crash%20report%202018%20V3.pdf https://activetrans.org/sites/files/crash%20report%202018%20... Edit: The closest to 1/3 days I could find was 13 bicycle deaths and 95 pedestrian fatalities totaling to 108 for the region. Which is 1 cyclist death per 28 days out of ~10 million people.

woodruffw 3y ago
Chicago's metropolitan area has around 10 million people in it. Are you saying that a cyclist killed every third day with that kind of population is considered an acceptable loss? Edit: for context, NYC alone has a comparable population (versus the entire Chicago MSA) and, despite rising cyclist deaths, still has significantly fewer than ~120 a year[1]. Edit: TFA's source for cycling deaths appears to be incorrect; the actual rate is far below ~120/year. The ~120/year number appears to come from a misreading of total pedestrian and cycling deaths in this report[2]. [1]: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2023/08/07/cyclist-deaths-are-surging-in-nyc https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2023/08/07/cyclist-deaths-are-su... [2]: https://activetrans.org/sites/files/crash%20report%202018%20V3.pdf https://activetrans.org/sites/files/crash%20report%202018%20...
- piva00 3y ago
  And also: what's the actual number of cyclists and how much do they travel? It's not close to 10 million, so a comparison with just raw population data doesn't really mean much. I guess there aren't many cyclists and they don't bike as much as the Dutch, making this death statistic even more absurd.
- Retric 3y ago
  I’m saying the statistic is flat out incorrect. I followed the link and the closest I could find was 13 bicycle deaths and 95 pedestrian fatalities totaling to 108 for the region.
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    Thanks; that's my read as well. I'm going to edit my comment.
Tiktaalik 3y ago
lol look at the active normalization going on even here in this thread!
- 3y ago

basisword 3y ago

There are 2-3 fatalities in cars per day in Chicago from what I can see. Both are useless stats without more context. A good comparison might be another city. For example there are approx < 10 cycling deaths per year in London which has decent cycling infrastructure these days.

marcinzm 3y ago

Also a completely false stat. The link goes to a site that links to this: https://activetrans.org/sites/files/crash%20report%202018%20V3.pdf https://activetrans.org/sites/files/crash%20report%202018%20... It among other fun things only goes up to 2016 and was published in mid 2018 (thus could not cover 2018). It also says that only 18 bicyclists were killed in 2016.

pengaru 3y ago

The streets of the greater Chicago area are full of frustrated drivers in a pointless pissing contest seemingly all on the fringe of a road-rage incident. It's like they're all fighting over scraps and the roads are the arena. I could write a short novel describing my childhood bmx experiences there through the 80s-90s, and in 2022 I rode an mtb around all summer during an extended visit. It's just insanity. People there are miserable and angry. It's palpable in how they drive.

norir 3y ago
Yes, the missing part of all the transportation debate is how existing driving conditions in many areas make motorists miserable even in the absence of cyclists. There are many people who are driving teetering on the edge of explosive rage (or already well beyond it). Their aggressive behavior spreads out and infects others. All road users are affected. Indeed it is actually likely other motorists who numerically suffer the most from this undercurrent of rage. Motorists just happen to be less vulnerable than cyclists and pedestrians so they don't have the same level of terror that these drivers can evoke in the more vulnerable road users. Unfortunately I don't think these problems can be solved with improved bike infrastructure in most cities (though I'm not opposed to it). I think it has more to do with the continual strain of long commutes and the horrible frustration of driving in traffic. Unless we build a world in which driving long distances is truly optional for the vast majority of citizens, road rage is likely to be pervasive and we will all suffer the consequences.
- pengaru 3y ago
  I think it's far more than just the long commutes and frustration of driving in traffic. These folks are predisposed to handle those things poorly for myriad reasons, and have established some very dangerous to pedestrians/cyclists driving norms which though illegal, go 100% unpoliced there. It's just very aggressive and driver-prioritized behavior, and it reinforces itself in a positive feedback loop turning many into psychopaths behind the wheel. You can't even safely walk to your car with groceries in IL, the pedestrians are expected to yield to the drivers. If you get in the path of a car in a parking lot, they'll often threateningly closely follow you to try compel you to move out of their way while walking to/from your car. The drivers behave like they all own the place when behind a wheel, of course that mentality manifests as a car vs. car pissing match in traffic. Cyclists don't stand a chance in such a milieu. Back when my family visited me in CA after moving ~15 years ago, it took just ONE day of them driving their rental to get a written warning from the police. Something about a cross-walk where they nearly hit a pedestrian after not stopping before entering the crossing zone to turn at an intersection IIRC. Turned out a police car was stopped at the intersection and witnessed it all go down. They were in complete disbelief and felt the pedestrian should have been watching out for cars, that they were in the right. It's batshit insanity in IL, and I suspect much of the US is like that to varying degrees. CA isn't even that great, but compared to IL I strongly prefer being any of driver/cyclist/pedestrian here than over there. It may seem paradoxical that one wouldn't at least prefer being the driver in driver-prioritized IL but it's unpleasant to drive where everyone you're sharing the road with is being a psychopath.