6 ms·

AWS Works Council Germany

33 points by throwaccthrow 3y ago

pxeger1 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
scrum-treats 3y ago
Pretty sure employees would benefit from a union. It's too little too late for whatever this is trying to be, IMO.
- QuinnyPig 3y ago
  You might want to research German employment law a bit more...
  - scrum-treats 3y ago
    Majority of Amazon employees exist outside Germany.
    - throwaccthrow 3y ago
      Well this is about Germany specifically
- Argorak 3y ago
  This is a German works council, which is the most common outcome of a unionization effort: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council#Germany Its creation can be forced by a vote of the employees and the council has a legal special status. This probably comes as a reaction to multiple distribution centers around Germany doing exactly that and forcing the creation of local work councils with the help of unions.
- k__ 3y ago
  Often union members are elected into works councils. It's basically like a government of the company and a union is just another party that can get elected.
  - jwildeboer 3y ago
    In the German IT world no. Unions are not needed for a works council. Our works council has 11 members of which one is a union member. 10 are not.
    - k__ 3y ago
      Yes, I didn't mean they are required. It's just that the only way a union member can get into a work council is getting elected just like every other employee.
- flohofwoe 3y ago
  It's a common thing in German companies of all sizes and usually a good thing for the company too because problems between management and workforce are usually solved in a much less "confrontational" way compared to full-blown unionization (especially in smaller family-owned "Mittelstand" businesses).
- jonp888 3y ago
  Unions and Works Councils are not mutually exclusive. All companies that have a recognized Union will have a Works Council too. A Works Council is entirely company specific. A Union is usually concerned with an entire sector and deals with company-specific issues only a limited way. In practice the Union organisations often provide assistance and advice to a Works Council, even to companies in which they are not active as a Union.
QuinnyPig 3y ago
The fact that this uses the AWS branding must send the marketing folks at Amazon into absolute fits of rage.
- Argorak 3y ago
  Footer: © Amazon Web Services EMEA SARL (Niederlassung Deutschland) This is probably the AWS lead initiative to place their preferred people into a council they see being formed anyways.
  - waffleiron 3y ago
    As someone working in Germany, that seems unlikely to me. A works council influenced by the company would like be struck down quickly, senior/mid management (e.g. directors and up) are even disallowed to participate/be elected as far as I know. Its more likely to me that they use that copyright as they are an official and legal part of the company as works council.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- formerly_proven 3y ago
  Works councils are legally recognized parts of their companies and generally use company branding, besides of course using the company offices, work hours and infrastructure to conduct their legally-protected business.
woodruffw 3y ago
For those who (like me) didn't know what a Works Council is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council#Germany TL;DR: It's a non-union form of worker representation with separate legal status in countries like France and Germany. While not unions, their existence isn't incompatible with unionization.
grunder_advice 3y ago
Do these work councils actually work? What incentive do they have to side with an employee over the company? Wouldn't it be the first aim of the HR department to get as cosy with them as possible?
- jwildeboer 3y ago
  Yes. They work. They decide on new hires. On many other things. By law they have a lot of rights. Disclaimer: I am an elected member of the Red Hat Germany works council.
  - grunder_advice 3y ago
    > They decide on new hires. That honestly does NOT reassure me. I'm getting flashbacks to being chosen last during football practice. While I can convince tech leads of my skills, I have never been a very popular guy and when it comes to being judged by a crowd, I fear they will pick the guy who is more handsome, taller, or Biodeutsch, or who has a more „sympathisch“ profile.
    - jonp888 3y ago
      It's nothing like that at all. They have no powers to make any subjective judgements about hiring. They can only object to a hiring if the company has contradicted the law or it's own policies. For instance if the company makes a team of Android developers redundant on Monday and then hires an external Android developer on Tuesday, the Works Council would want to know a very good reason why one of the potential internal candidates was not selected instead. I guess a company could ask their opinion if they wanted to, but they are not legally compelled to do so. In my experience no-one from the works council is physically present in interviews either. They are just informed afterwards that a hiring decision is made and they have to approve or reject it.
      - grunder_advice 3y ago
        That sounds much more reasonable.
jwildeboer 3y ago
As a member of the Red Hat Germany works council I congratulate our friends at AWS for doing the right thing and hope we can soon have a discussion!

33 points by throwaccthrow 3y ago

pxeger1 3y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

scrum-treats 3y ago

Pretty sure employees would benefit from a union. It's too little too late for whatever this is trying to be, IMO.

QuinnyPig 3y ago
You might want to research German employment law a bit more...
- scrum-treats 3y ago
  Majority of Amazon employees exist outside Germany.
  - throwaccthrow 3y ago
    Well this is about Germany specifically
Argorak 3y ago
This is a German works council, which is the most common outcome of a unionization effort: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council#Germany Its creation can be forced by a vote of the employees and the council has a legal special status. This probably comes as a reaction to multiple distribution centers around Germany doing exactly that and forcing the creation of local work councils with the help of unions.
k__ 3y ago
Often union members are elected into works councils. It's basically like a government of the company and a union is just another party that can get elected.
- jwildeboer 3y ago
  In the German IT world no. Unions are not needed for a works council. Our works council has 11 members of which one is a union member. 10 are not.
  - k__ 3y ago
    Yes, I didn't mean they are required. It's just that the only way a union member can get into a work council is getting elected just like every other employee.
flohofwoe 3y ago
It's a common thing in German companies of all sizes and usually a good thing for the company too because problems between management and workforce are usually solved in a much less "confrontational" way compared to full-blown unionization (especially in smaller family-owned "Mittelstand" businesses).
jonp888 3y ago
Unions and Works Councils are not mutually exclusive. All companies that have a recognized Union will have a Works Council too. A Works Council is entirely company specific. A Union is usually concerned with an entire sector and deals with company-specific issues only a limited way. In practice the Union organisations often provide assistance and advice to a Works Council, even to companies in which they are not active as a Union.

QuinnyPig 3y ago

The fact that this uses the AWS branding must send the marketing folks at Amazon into absolute fits of rage.

Argorak 3y ago
Footer: © Amazon Web Services EMEA SARL (Niederlassung Deutschland) This is probably the AWS lead initiative to place their preferred people into a council they see being formed anyways.
- waffleiron 3y ago
  As someone working in Germany, that seems unlikely to me. A works council influenced by the company would like be struck down quickly, senior/mid management (e.g. directors and up) are even disallowed to participate/be elected as far as I know. Its more likely to me that they use that copyright as they are an official and legal part of the company as works council.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
formerly_proven 3y ago
Works councils are legally recognized parts of their companies and generally use company branding, besides of course using the company offices, work hours and infrastructure to conduct their legally-protected business.

woodruffw 3y ago

For those who (like me) didn't know what a Works Council is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council#Germany TL;DR: It's a non-union form of worker representation with separate legal status in countries like France and Germany. While not unions, their existence isn't incompatible with unionization.

grunder_advice 3y ago

Do these work councils actually work? What incentive do they have to side with an employee over the company? Wouldn't it be the first aim of the HR department to get as cosy with them as possible?

jwildeboer 3y ago
Yes. They work. They decide on new hires. On many other things. By law they have a lot of rights. Disclaimer: I am an elected member of the Red Hat Germany works council.
- grunder_advice 3y ago
  > They decide on new hires. That honestly does NOT reassure me. I'm getting flashbacks to being chosen last during football practice. While I can convince tech leads of my skills, I have never been a very popular guy and when it comes to being judged by a crowd, I fear they will pick the guy who is more handsome, taller, or Biodeutsch, or who has a more „sympathisch“ profile.
  - jonp888 3y ago
    It's nothing like that at all. They have no powers to make any subjective judgements about hiring. They can only object to a hiring if the company has contradicted the law or it's own policies. For instance if the company makes a team of Android developers redundant on Monday and then hires an external Android developer on Tuesday, the Works Council would want to know a very good reason why one of the potential internal candidates was not selected instead. I guess a company could ask their opinion if they wanted to, but they are not legally compelled to do so. In my experience no-one from the works council is physically present in interviews either. They are just informed afterwards that a hiring decision is made and they have to approve or reject it.
    - grunder_advice 3y ago
      That sounds much more reasonable.

jwildeboer 3y ago

As a member of the Red Hat Germany works council I congratulate our friends at AWS for doing the right thing and hope we can soon have a discussion!