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I’m 100% on board with this if this means people will be able to actually save for a sabbatical. The reasons why pensions existed to begin with is that workers

I’m 100% on board with this if this means people will be able to actually save for a sabbatical. The reasons why pensions existed to begin with is that workers were pretty poor savers. Then the biggest pension generation voted that it’s pensions for me but not for thee and changed everything to 401k/IRA/Big Mattress and turned it back on the worker to figure out. All while keeping wages down as the world costs increase. One of the best things you can do is live debt free. Even if that means living in an RV or on a boat or tiny house or grandmas basement. Live debt free. Don’t become entangled in needing to work to survive. Living paycheck to paycheck because Bank of Pain needs their flesh.

iso1631 3y ago
> Live debt free. Don’t become entangled in needing to work to survive I don't know about you but with no debt and no income I wouldn't survive very long, as I need annoying things like food.
- gabereiser 3y ago
  I never said don’t work
  - vikramkr 3y ago
    > Don’t become entangled in needing to work to survive If you need to work to get food, you need to work to survive
    - gabereiser 3y ago
      You’re right. So don’t let it get to that point. Work and live below your means. If you are working full time and struggling to put food on the table then take a look at your debt. Work and save so you have 2x more days not working than you do working.
      - vikramkr 3y ago
        Which is fair if you don't like your job or don't get intrinsic satisfaction from making more money/increasing your lifestyle. If you're working full time and struggling to put food on your table, that probably means you're trapped in one of the various poverty traps or financial spirals like healthcare costs that plague this country. These are very hard to get out of and telling ordinary people to just be the kind of extraordinary person who can escape that situation is not just utterly useless but also counterproductive. We point to the folks that have either through extraordinary skill or effort or luck gotten out of those situations and use them to justify perpetuating broken and exploitative systems that trap people in poverty and debt by claiming that clearly people can get out. "Just take a look at your debt" is among the most infuriating things you could say to someone in that situation. Oh it's that easy is it? Just "look at my debt"? Ive gotten enough exposure to the flip side, the lender side, of these stories to see how we (meaning literally the people I went to school with) deliberately engineer these systems to exploit you. You're not just "looking at your debt." You have to escape a system engineered by Yale lawyers and Wharton mbas and internet grifters and psychologists and marketers and financiers and salespeople and mortgage companies and private equity (who owns your land, hi appolo!) and Berkshire Hathaway (who owns your mobile home) and hospital administrator and so so so so many other people
        gabereiser 3y ago
        We are all presented the same choices (granted from different levels of privilege) and we all make decisions. Health care costs are ridiculous, I agree, and people shouldn’t go broke if they get sick. That said, they shouldn’t be eating garbage and things that make them sick. You can’t complain that your finances are drained from cancer all while your whole life you ate Taco Bell and McDonalds. Choices have consequences. Debt is a result of that. There’s really only two maybe three kinds of good debt. Everything else is a salesman trying to get you roped into a payment scheme like you describe. It’s the ultimate bazaar, backed by the lawyers and justice system saying you agreed to pay. Don’t agree to pay for things. Stop buying crap off Facebook. Buy a used car instead of making payments on a new one. Love yourself and stop trying to keep up with the neighbors.
- liquidpele 3y ago
  Have you considered eating the rich?
  - GenerocUsername 3y ago
    Get your iOs-flavored socialism outs here
- Zambyte 3y ago
  You should work on building up savings then.
  - esafak 3y ago
    That's what people spend their entire working lives doing, so they can retire on those savings.
    - Zambyte 3y ago
      And this thread is about changing that...
    - iso1631 3y ago
      At a population level that's where rent increases to extract every spare cent from workers. Sure an individual worker can earn more and spend less, but at scale if everyone does that means that the excess money is taken by land owners.
      - gabereiser 3y ago
        It doesn’t have to be this way. It didn’t used to be this way. Rent control helps not just renters but keeps runaway property values from occurring due to renters. Without control to keep the industry from raising rents to 99% of what you can afford, we’ll continue to see what you describe. If I know humanity, it’s that they will always find the next sucker.
- hotnfresh 3y ago
  I could feed my family with part-time odd jobs, not a “real job”. Still working, but less and with more freedom. Health insurance and healthcare bills would be what made it impossible, even with no debt.
vasco 3y ago
The idea of the post is based on the fact that this period would be covered by the same social security fund that covers retirements right now in most of social-democratic european systems, so you don't need to save for sabbatical the same way you don't need to save for retirement under these conditions.
- gabereiser 3y ago
  I’m aware, and I’m 100% behind it. It’s the right move. For Poland, for mental health, for invigorating the workforce. I complain about the US system because it’s sooo backwards and it’s what I know. It’s also being used to model other European efforts to eliminate pensions and retirement efforts.
flatline 3y ago
Living debt free feels great, and is a huge privilege. Debt is perhaps the biggest economic driver humans have invented. It gives people leverage they would not otherwise have. College. Small business. Home improvement. Of course there is the downside of usury, payday loans, cc debt, medical debt, inflated education expenses, and all the other troubles caused by debt. But well-chosen debt can be a godsend.
- neon_electro 3y ago
  Especially when it's interest free - thanks, BNPL startups and venture capital! I appreciate interest free loans at your expense.
lotsofpulp 3y ago
>Then the biggest pension generation voted that it’s pensions for me but not for thee and changed everything to 401k/IRA/Big Mattress and turned it back on the worker to figure out. With very low cost target date retirement funds and near free index funds, there is no difference other than cutting out middlemen defined benefit pension fund administrators. All the money is going to the same place, backed by the same federal government. The bigger problem is that while it is easy to vote more money into existence, it is not easy to vote more labor and materials into existence.
pc86 3y ago
Defined-benefit plans do not work. Maybe you can pick out some arbitrary 20/30/40 year window where they did, but with current demographics and projects demographic changes the math just doesn't add up. At least with defined-contribution plans you are able to save for yourself rather than just hoping your retirement fund is still there in 50 years and having to save for yourself on top of that.
- ghaff 3y ago
  >Defined-benefit plans do not work. Or at least they were generally oriented towards multi-decade employment with the government or a large manufacturing company. There were pension fund protections put in place over time and I won't personally regret having a modest payout from a long-ago employer whose pension fund has made it through a couple acquisitions. But defined benefit pensions are another case of tying important benefits to an employer which people shouldn't generally favor, especially today. It's nice having a small lottery ticket I was probably only vaguely aware of at the time but it's not really good policy.

iso1631 3y ago

> Live debt free. Don’t become entangled in needing to work to survive I don't know about you but with no debt and no income I wouldn't survive very long, as I need annoying things like food.

gabereiser 3y ago
I never said don’t work
- vikramkr 3y ago
  > Don’t become entangled in needing to work to survive If you need to work to get food, you need to work to survive
  - gabereiser 3y ago
    You’re right. So don’t let it get to that point. Work and live below your means. If you are working full time and struggling to put food on the table then take a look at your debt. Work and save so you have 2x more days not working than you do working.
    - vikramkr 3y ago
      Which is fair if you don't like your job or don't get intrinsic satisfaction from making more money/increasing your lifestyle. If you're working full time and struggling to put food on your table, that probably means you're trapped in one of the various poverty traps or financial spirals like healthcare costs that plague this country. These are very hard to get out of and telling ordinary people to just be the kind of extraordinary person who can escape that situation is not just utterly useless but also counterproductive. We point to the folks that have either through extraordinary skill or effort or luck gotten out of those situations and use them to justify perpetuating broken and exploitative systems that trap people in poverty and debt by claiming that clearly people can get out. "Just take a look at your debt" is among the most infuriating things you could say to someone in that situation. Oh it's that easy is it? Just "look at my debt"? Ive gotten enough exposure to the flip side, the lender side, of these stories to see how we (meaning literally the people I went to school with) deliberately engineer these systems to exploit you. You're not just "looking at your debt." You have to escape a system engineered by Yale lawyers and Wharton mbas and internet grifters and psychologists and marketers and financiers and salespeople and mortgage companies and private equity (who owns your land, hi appolo!) and Berkshire Hathaway (who owns your mobile home) and hospital administrator and so so so so many other people
      - gabereiser 3y ago
        We are all presented the same choices (granted from different levels of privilege) and we all make decisions. Health care costs are ridiculous, I agree, and people shouldn’t go broke if they get sick. That said, they shouldn’t be eating garbage and things that make them sick. You can’t complain that your finances are drained from cancer all while your whole life you ate Taco Bell and McDonalds. Choices have consequences. Debt is a result of that. There’s really only two maybe three kinds of good debt. Everything else is a salesman trying to get you roped into a payment scheme like you describe. It’s the ultimate bazaar, backed by the lawyers and justice system saying you agreed to pay. Don’t agree to pay for things. Stop buying crap off Facebook. Buy a used car instead of making payments on a new one. Love yourself and stop trying to keep up with the neighbors.
liquidpele 3y ago
Have you considered eating the rich?
- GenerocUsername 3y ago
  Get your iOs-flavored socialism outs here
Zambyte 3y ago
You should work on building up savings then.
- esafak 3y ago
  That's what people spend their entire working lives doing, so they can retire on those savings.
  - Zambyte 3y ago
    And this thread is about changing that...
  - iso1631 3y ago
    At a population level that's where rent increases to extract every spare cent from workers. Sure an individual worker can earn more and spend less, but at scale if everyone does that means that the excess money is taken by land owners.
    - gabereiser 3y ago
      It doesn’t have to be this way. It didn’t used to be this way. Rent control helps not just renters but keeps runaway property values from occurring due to renters. Without control to keep the industry from raising rents to 99% of what you can afford, we’ll continue to see what you describe. If I know humanity, it’s that they will always find the next sucker.
hotnfresh 3y ago
I could feed my family with part-time odd jobs, not a “real job”. Still working, but less and with more freedom. Health insurance and healthcare bills would be what made it impossible, even with no debt.

vasco 3y ago

The idea of the post is based on the fact that this period would be covered by the same social security fund that covers retirements right now in most of social-democratic european systems, so you don't need to save for sabbatical the same way you don't need to save for retirement under these conditions.

gabereiser 3y ago
I’m aware, and I’m 100% behind it. It’s the right move. For Poland, for mental health, for invigorating the workforce. I complain about the US system because it’s sooo backwards and it’s what I know. It’s also being used to model other European efforts to eliminate pensions and retirement efforts.

flatline 3y ago

Living debt free feels great, and is a huge privilege. Debt is perhaps the biggest economic driver humans have invented. It gives people leverage they would not otherwise have. College. Small business. Home improvement. Of course there is the downside of usury, payday loans, cc debt, medical debt, inflated education expenses, and all the other troubles caused by debt. But well-chosen debt can be a godsend.

neon_electro 3y ago
Especially when it's interest free - thanks, BNPL startups and venture capital! I appreciate interest free loans at your expense.

lotsofpulp 3y ago

>Then the biggest pension generation voted that it’s pensions for me but not for thee and changed everything to 401k/IRA/Big Mattress and turned it back on the worker to figure out. With very low cost target date retirement funds and near free index funds, there is no difference other than cutting out middlemen defined benefit pension fund administrators. All the money is going to the same place, backed by the same federal government. The bigger problem is that while it is easy to vote more money into existence, it is not easy to vote more labor and materials into existence.

pc86 3y ago

Defined-benefit plans do not work. Maybe you can pick out some arbitrary 20/30/40 year window where they did, but with current demographics and projects demographic changes the math just doesn't add up. At least with defined-contribution plans you are able to save for yourself rather than just hoping your retirement fund is still there in 50 years and having to save for yourself on top of that.

ghaff 3y ago
>Defined-benefit plans do not work. Or at least they were generally oriented towards multi-decade employment with the government or a large manufacturing company. There were pension fund protections put in place over time and I won't personally regret having a modest payout from a long-ago employer whose pension fund has made it through a couple acquisitions. But defined benefit pensions are another case of tying important benefits to an employer which people shouldn't generally favor, especially today. It's nice having a small lottery ticket I was probably only vaguely aware of at the time but it's not really good policy.