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Despite good intentions, extreme poverty cannot easily be solved from outside a country. Looking at some of the worst countries: When they receive aid, as often

Despite good intentions, extreme poverty cannot easily be solved from outside a country. Looking at some of the worst countries: When they receive aid, as often as not that aid is sold off, and the proceeds land in the pockets of corrupt politicians. Or it is destroyed in continuous civil war. Or it puts local farmers out of business, because they cannot compete with "free". Etc, etc. Solutions must come from within the countries, and those solutions must involve cultural change: reduced tribal hatreds, fewer civil wars, less corruption, and so forth. Without such change, a lot of external aid just worsens the problems it is supposed to solve.

4d66ba06 3y ago
Give Directly has an interesting approach, direct cash transfers. Seem to have studies that show it helps.
javajosh 3y ago
Look at Haiti. The government has failed, violent gangs rule the streets. And yet the people are against foreign intervention. Those groups that do go in are attacked their people kidnapped for ransom and so on. It will be an interesting test of your theory since they seem to be saying: you're right. You can't fix our problems. We need to fix it ourselves. I don't envy the ordinary everyday Haitians who are going to suffer so much. But hopefully they'll have something meaningful and lasting because it will come from them.
- Lord-Jobo 3y ago
  Haiti has an extremely long history, continuing to this very day, of being completely and totally railed by the 'First World'. This is a very long, comedic, and yes fairly politically biased, overview of that history (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saljZXoexhc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saljZXoexhc) TLDR; Haiti is a victim of the first world's evil. TLDRBIWRS(but i will read some); the second that Haiti won their independence and grew a black democracy (the first nation to ban slavery), the empires of the world turned them into a pariah and destroyed them systematically through means such as being literally held at gunpoint by Charles X to join a massive and incredibly predatory loan. One that took 130 years to pay off(1825-1947!!!). They were economically isolated by the Thomas Jefferson immediately. The US financial vice in 1910, in response to German investment, provoked a dictatorship in Haiti, then the US occupied. Eventually FDR pulled out, but the financial vice stayed in place until 1947, post revolution. That chaos churned for 20 years, and JFK pulled all aid in 1961. Haiti was forced into another ridiculous 100 year contract, this time by U.S. Dupont. The CIA dug deep and control the haitain intelligence agency in the 1980s. drugs, guns, assassinations, normal CIA stuff for the 80s. The first true positive action from outside the country took place in 1994, when Clinton and Carter brought an exiled leader back and lead to a proper democracy. But, the second they asked for reasonable concessions from the US in 2000(which failed due to the US rotten congress and its self preservation), the EU and US cut aid significantly. Again. Chaos leads to a 2004 coup, one where the US meddled and has still not provided counter evidence to circumstances that appear to show the US forcing out Aristide, the leader Carter and Clinton had brought back. Devastating earthquake and rebuild/restructure towards tourism through the 2010s. 2017, a new leader 'elected' with a heavy hand from the US who oversaw this election. This leader attempts a coup, and is assassinated in 2021. Another devastating earthquake. Gang violence in 2022.
Brusco_RF 3y ago
External aid can't, but external investment can. The greatest reduction in extreme poverty in human history happened in China starting in the second half of last century continuing to the present. It was a result of the West building factories and outsourcing labor there. Unfortunately a prerequisite for foreign investment is political stability. Nobody is going to build a factory in a war zone, which is why Sudan Somalia and Ethiopia look the way they do. It's a delicate situation and I don't think anyone really knows the best way to help.
- bllguo 3y ago
  > It's a delicate situation and I don't think anyone really knows the best way to help. does the answer not follow immediately from what youre saying? economic aid, no strings attached. no efforts towards regime change, no political pressure or ideological motivations. that's all. of course this is not possible in a world with the US as hegemon, but the solution is hardly a secret.
  - Gud 3y ago
    Who will you give this aid to? Realistically, it would be given to the government right? Do you think it would be spent wisely, considering most(if not all) poor countries are run by extremely corrupt governments.
    - bllguo 3y ago
      if you don't think they can spend it wisely then don't give it to them.. this is an orthogonal discussion to the point of "don't destabilize other nations by trying to influence their political systems under the guise of providing aid"

4d66ba06 3y ago

Give Directly has an interesting approach, direct cash transfers. Seem to have studies that show it helps.

javajosh 3y ago

Look at Haiti. The government has failed, violent gangs rule the streets. And yet the people are against foreign intervention. Those groups that do go in are attacked their people kidnapped for ransom and so on. It will be an interesting test of your theory since they seem to be saying: you're right. You can't fix our problems. We need to fix it ourselves. I don't envy the ordinary everyday Haitians who are going to suffer so much. But hopefully they'll have something meaningful and lasting because it will come from them.

Lord-Jobo 3y ago
Haiti has an extremely long history, continuing to this very day, of being completely and totally railed by the 'First World'. This is a very long, comedic, and yes fairly politically biased, overview of that history (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saljZXoexhc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saljZXoexhc) TLDR; Haiti is a victim of the first world's evil. TLDRBIWRS(but i will read some); the second that Haiti won their independence and grew a black democracy (the first nation to ban slavery), the empires of the world turned them into a pariah and destroyed them systematically through means such as being literally held at gunpoint by Charles X to join a massive and incredibly predatory loan. One that took 130 years to pay off(1825-1947!!!). They were economically isolated by the Thomas Jefferson immediately. The US financial vice in 1910, in response to German investment, provoked a dictatorship in Haiti, then the US occupied. Eventually FDR pulled out, but the financial vice stayed in place until 1947, post revolution. That chaos churned for 20 years, and JFK pulled all aid in 1961. Haiti was forced into another ridiculous 100 year contract, this time by U.S. Dupont. The CIA dug deep and control the haitain intelligence agency in the 1980s. drugs, guns, assassinations, normal CIA stuff for the 80s. The first true positive action from outside the country took place in 1994, when Clinton and Carter brought an exiled leader back and lead to a proper democracy. But, the second they asked for reasonable concessions from the US in 2000(which failed due to the US rotten congress and its self preservation), the EU and US cut aid significantly. Again. Chaos leads to a 2004 coup, one where the US meddled and has still not provided counter evidence to circumstances that appear to show the US forcing out Aristide, the leader Carter and Clinton had brought back. Devastating earthquake and rebuild/restructure towards tourism through the 2010s. 2017, a new leader 'elected' with a heavy hand from the US who oversaw this election. This leader attempts a coup, and is assassinated in 2021. Another devastating earthquake. Gang violence in 2022.

Brusco_RF 3y ago

External aid can't, but external investment can. The greatest reduction in extreme poverty in human history happened in China starting in the second half of last century continuing to the present. It was a result of the West building factories and outsourcing labor there. Unfortunately a prerequisite for foreign investment is political stability. Nobody is going to build a factory in a war zone, which is why Sudan Somalia and Ethiopia look the way they do. It's a delicate situation and I don't think anyone really knows the best way to help.

bllguo 3y ago
> It's a delicate situation and I don't think anyone really knows the best way to help. does the answer not follow immediately from what youre saying? economic aid, no strings attached. no efforts towards regime change, no political pressure or ideological motivations. that's all. of course this is not possible in a world with the US as hegemon, but the solution is hardly a secret.
- Gud 3y ago
  Who will you give this aid to? Realistically, it would be given to the government right? Do you think it would be spent wisely, considering most(if not all) poor countries are run by extremely corrupt governments.
  - bllguo 3y ago
    if you don't think they can spend it wisely then don't give it to them.. this is an orthogonal discussion to the point of "don't destabilize other nations by trying to influence their political systems under the guise of providing aid"