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Per the NYPost article on this, > During the meeting, which is known in internal Amazon lingo as a “fishbowl” meeting, Jassy declined to share data that motiva

by DaveFr 3y ago

Per the NYPost article on this, > During the meeting, which is known in internal Amazon lingo as a “fishbowl” meeting, Jassy declined to share data that motivated his decision to require employees to return to the office. The CEO told his charges it was a “judgment” call. Could some brave soul please leak whatever data these guys are seeing? Reports, statistics, even just emails where they whine about empty offices? Something tangible that gives us mere mortals actual perspective. The conversation is dominated by conspiracy theories about real estate investments and 'CEO vibes', it feels untethered and fact-free.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
thebigspacefuck 3y ago
I just imagine everyone there is using Chime and it’s not working that well
hgsgm 3y ago
Amazon built the entire company on two decision-making systems 1. A/B testing and multi-armed bandits. 2. "jeff_said", a special macro in the website that overrides the decisions of automated A/B testing and multi-armed bandits.
notatoad 3y ago
>The CEO told his charges it was a “judgment” call. is it really an untethered conspiracy theory when the CEO is straight-up saying his decision is based on vibes?
- ChildOfChaos 3y ago
  Trust me bro...
- michaelt 3y ago
  If the CEO has a wealth of data and it says with remote working Metric A has gone up which is good, and Metric B has gone down which is bad, they have to make a judgement call about which metric to rely on even though they're making an evidence-based decision.
  - LiquidSky 3y ago
    Great, then share that evidence. The problem is all these royal decrees to return to the office never come with even a shred of actual data to explain them. Once it became clear that they couldn’t show WFH harmed productivity, their arguments became increasingly abstract (e.g., “office culture”) and finally we’ve arrived at simply “because I said so”.
    - RestlessMind 3y ago
      Why should RTO need data? That was the setup until 2020 and it worked. Especially for the leadership who have grown up in that requirement. Onus is on the pro-remote side to provide data that that works. Sample size of 1 - at my company, remote sucks even if we tried to go all-in on fully remote. I simply cannot have trusted relationships with my colleagues since everything has to be writing or is possible being recorded when on video. In person, both parties can share candid thoughts in person without any fear of being recorded for ever.
      - kyleee 3y ago
        Sounds like you work in a kind of cut throat place. Is yours a common worry? I have never worried about anything like this in the last ~7 years of working remotely
        RestlessMind 3y ago
        I also worked at some of the nicest environments (Google) and still, it was drilled into our minds that anything in writing can be used against us or company. In various formal and informal trainings, we were explicitly told to carry out sensitive conversations in person.
      - ghaff 3y ago
        If there's no evidence a call is being recorded, I'm very comfortable that it is not. That said, I do think it's harder to establish solid working relationships purely virtually. Possible but harder. During the pandemic a lot of people probably coasted based on prior relationships and we're likely starting to see some of capital running out.
- rchaud 3y ago
  "judgment call" is what I'd say if I knew the data wasn't nearly as conclusive as I'd need it to be to call it a "data driven" decision.
dfxm12 3y ago
The data probably suggests they should lay off a bunch of people & that this might be best way for them to do so, in terms of not legally needing to offer severance, legal issues, PR, stock prices, etc.
- mdgrech23 3y ago
  100% this. Employers know they can turn up the heat so to speak by making the workplace less enjoyable and more people will leave b/c of that. That saves them from having to lay off people. I think it's important to note layoffs tend to push stock prices down and that's what these folks specifically care about b/c that's what's good for their pocket book.
  - RestlessMind 3y ago
    > it's important to note layoffs tend to push stock prices down citation needed. Not my experience at all. Anecdotal example: META.
    - tacker2000 3y ago
      Yea sometimes the share prices even go up bc the market sees “efficiency”
      - Detrytus 3y ago
        Not "sometimes", most of the time.
- manuelabeledo 3y ago
  I have read this reasoning from time to time, but how does it make sense? Wouldn't most of the high performers who don't want to go back to the office, just quit and get a better job, while low performing individuals would stick as long as possible since they could keep slacking as long as they go to the office three days a week?
  - 3y ago
vb6sp6 3y ago
[dead]
antisthenes 3y ago
> Could some brave soul please leak whatever data these guys are seeing? Reports, statistics, even just emails where they whine about empty offices? Something tangible that gives us mere mortals actual perspective. Yeah, the "Gut" dataset, gathered from "My ass", and filtered by "bullshit" column. We have to stop playing this game and pretending like RTO is some hidden innovation-building gem that no one is aware about that turns failing businesses into Fortune 100 powerhouses. People in the 90s had it figured out - if you want people to get together to discuss important issues, it's called a business trip. No, you don't need to do it for every sprint or feature proposal. Do it in moderation, 2-3 times a year, and let people live where they want to live (usually next to their families).
LiquidSky 3y ago
>The conversation is dominated by conspiracy theories about real estate investments and 'CEO vibes', it feels untethered and fact-free. One might think the fact that they don’t readily offer concrete evidence to support their actions is itself evidence that these “conspiracy theories” are on the right track. The conversation is dominated by such talk because, as you said, no evidence otherwise has been offered to explain the fervent desire of those at the top for returning to the office.

by DaveFr 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

thebigspacefuck 3y ago

I just imagine everyone there is using Chime and it’s not working that well

hgsgm 3y ago

Amazon built the entire company on two decision-making systems 1. A/B testing and multi-armed bandits. 2. "jeff_said", a special macro in the website that overrides the decisions of automated A/B testing and multi-armed bandits.

notatoad 3y ago

>The CEO told his charges it was a “judgment” call. is it really an untethered conspiracy theory when the CEO is straight-up saying his decision is based on vibes?

ChildOfChaos 3y ago
Trust me bro...
michaelt 3y ago
If the CEO has a wealth of data and it says with remote working Metric A has gone up which is good, and Metric B has gone down which is bad, they have to make a judgement call about which metric to rely on even though they're making an evidence-based decision.
- LiquidSky 3y ago
  Great, then share that evidence. The problem is all these royal decrees to return to the office never come with even a shred of actual data to explain them. Once it became clear that they couldn’t show WFH harmed productivity, their arguments became increasingly abstract (e.g., “office culture”) and finally we’ve arrived at simply “because I said so”.
  - RestlessMind 3y ago
    Why should RTO need data? That was the setup until 2020 and it worked. Especially for the leadership who have grown up in that requirement. Onus is on the pro-remote side to provide data that that works. Sample size of 1 - at my company, remote sucks even if we tried to go all-in on fully remote. I simply cannot have trusted relationships with my colleagues since everything has to be writing or is possible being recorded when on video. In person, both parties can share candid thoughts in person without any fear of being recorded for ever.
    - kyleee 3y ago
      Sounds like you work in a kind of cut throat place. Is yours a common worry? I have never worried about anything like this in the last ~7 years of working remotely
      - RestlessMind 3y ago
        I also worked at some of the nicest environments (Google) and still, it was drilled into our minds that anything in writing can be used against us or company. In various formal and informal trainings, we were explicitly told to carry out sensitive conversations in person.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      If there's no evidence a call is being recorded, I'm very comfortable that it is not. That said, I do think it's harder to establish solid working relationships purely virtually. Possible but harder. During the pandemic a lot of people probably coasted based on prior relationships and we're likely starting to see some of capital running out.
rchaud 3y ago
"judgment call" is what I'd say if I knew the data wasn't nearly as conclusive as I'd need it to be to call it a "data driven" decision.

dfxm12 3y ago

The data probably suggests they should lay off a bunch of people & that this might be best way for them to do so, in terms of not legally needing to offer severance, legal issues, PR, stock prices, etc.

mdgrech23 3y ago
100% this. Employers know they can turn up the heat so to speak by making the workplace less enjoyable and more people will leave b/c of that. That saves them from having to lay off people. I think it's important to note layoffs tend to push stock prices down and that's what these folks specifically care about b/c that's what's good for their pocket book.
- RestlessMind 3y ago
  > it's important to note layoffs tend to push stock prices down citation needed. Not my experience at all. Anecdotal example: META.
  - tacker2000 3y ago
    Yea sometimes the share prices even go up bc the market sees “efficiency”
    - Detrytus 3y ago
      Not "sometimes", most of the time.
manuelabeledo 3y ago
I have read this reasoning from time to time, but how does it make sense? Wouldn't most of the high performers who don't want to go back to the office, just quit and get a better job, while low performing individuals would stick as long as possible since they could keep slacking as long as they go to the office three days a week?
- 3y ago

vb6sp6 3y ago

[dead]

antisthenes 3y ago

> Could some brave soul please leak whatever data these guys are seeing? Reports, statistics, even just emails where they whine about empty offices? Something tangible that gives us mere mortals actual perspective. Yeah, the "Gut" dataset, gathered from "My ass", and filtered by "bullshit" column. We have to stop playing this game and pretending like RTO is some hidden innovation-building gem that no one is aware about that turns failing businesses into Fortune 100 powerhouses. People in the 90s had it figured out - if you want people to get together to discuss important issues, it's called a business trip. No, you don't need to do it for every sprint or feature proposal. Do it in moderation, 2-3 times a year, and let people live where they want to live (usually next to their families).

LiquidSky 3y ago

>The conversation is dominated by conspiracy theories about real estate investments and 'CEO vibes', it feels untethered and fact-free. One might think the fact that they don’t readily offer concrete evidence to support their actions is itself evidence that these “conspiracy theories” are on the right track. The conversation is dominated by such talk because, as you said, no evidence otherwise has been offered to explain the fervent desire of those at the top for returning to the office.