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America's not. The southwest and California are. The rest of the country has a surplus of water from rain. The farms near me all use rainwater retention pond

America's not. The southwest and California are. The rest of the country has a surplus of water from rain. The farms near me all use rainwater retention ponds for irrigation, it's much cheaper than digging a well (the farther you lift water, the more energy it takes), and that's only for really water hungry crops (fruits and vegetables). The corn and wheat around here are all watered by the sky.

dopidopHN 3y ago
How large are those retention pool? Football size ?
- linuxftw 3y ago
  The farms I'm personally familiar with use multiple smaller ponds. I would say they have 1/10th of the acreage in retention ponds, if that.
kedean 3y ago
> The rest of the country has a surplus of water from rain I think this too strong of a generalization. The Great Plains region, for example, relies on the Ogalalla Aquifer for it's groundwater, which has been dropping at accelerating rates because so many farmers and ranchers draw heavily from it (even more than they would otherwise, thanks to crop subsidies), along with being a huge drinking water source. The depletion of groundwater is a big deal in that region.
droopyEyelids 3y ago
That's true. On the other hand California is 1/6th of the USA's economy, and 12% of the population. The "Southwest, Great Plains, plus California" is a significant part of the USA.
- tristor 3y ago
  I would argue that the NY Times writing about "America" as if California + New York == America far predates the magnitude of economic importance California and New York now have. There has long been a coastal bias in the US, which predates the migrations of business and population to the coasts, where everything in the middle is disdained and not due any consideration. The reality is, when it comes to groundwater anyway, all you need to do is look at land area vs mountain ranges and you can form a pretty intuitive understanding of water flows, since water flows to the lowest spots until it eventually reaches the sea or seeps into the ground. The parent to your post is very correct, California because most of the state is between the sea and a close-in mountain range has minimal ground water outside its direct watersheds, and must use intentional irrigation and pumping to move and use water. Consequently, they are one of the primary users of water originating in other parts of the country. As someone residing in Colorado, we are /well/ (no pun intended) aware of how water is used and how water rights work, and the reality is that California has an out-sized usage compared to other states, and frankly takes more than its fair share.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    The vast majority of its "out-sized usage" is because it grows the fruits and vegetables for the rest of the nation. 75% or more of CA water use is for agriculture (also true of the other southwestern states). Per-capita use in cities and towns has been declining (in some cases, by huge amounts), and in general southwestern-resident humans use far less water than their upper-midwestern or east coast cousins.
    - linuxftw 3y ago
      California grows very little for the 'rest' of the nation. Outside of oranges and almonds, most produce is produced regionally during the growing season.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
        Sorry, but this is absolutely false. > Over a third of the country’s vegetables and three-quarters of the country’s fruits and nuts are grown in California. https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/Statistics/ https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/Statistics/ > California is America’s food-producing powerhouse. Despite being home to just 4 percent of the farms and ranches in the country—83,217 of them, according to the most recent United States Census of Agriculture—the state generates 11.04 percent of the U.S. agricultural value. In 2021, that meant $54.5 million in cash receipts from agriculture poured into California. In fact, California is the fifth-largest supplier of food and other agricultural products in the world. The Central Valley alone—the 400-mile-long, 50-mile-wide region starting just south of Bakersfield and extending northward to Redding—produces 8 percent of America’s food supply though it contains just 1 percent of the country’s farmland. Half of all fruits and vegetables grown in the U.S. come from California, and the state effectively produces all (at least 99 percent) of America’s almonds, pistachios, pomegranates, and walnuts. California is also the nation’s leading grower of lima beans, lemons, kumquats, raspberries, strawberries, and spinach—to name just a few. https://californialocal.com/localnews/statewide/ca/article/show/36707-california-agriculture-dairy-wheat-fruit-vegetables/ https://californialocal.com/localnews/statewide/ca/article/s...
DrThunder 3y ago
I would say the entire west US. Moving from the midwest out the mountain west, it's crazy how much water they use out here. I never watered my lawn in the midwest and like you said crops were never irrigated. Rainwater was enough for all of that. Out here in the high desert EVERYTHING is watered, it all dies if it isn't. Unless you're higher mountain elevation, nothing grows except sage, cactus, and weeds.
fh973 3y ago
The article at least adds (regions of) Kansas, Arkansas, D.C., Maryland, Utah, Virginia to the list.
cykotic 3y ago
It’s odd to me that you don’t like the phrasing “America is using…” and want it to read “The Southwest portion of America…”. Millions of people live in the Southwest and it is part of America. It’s not a problem for just the Southwest. It’s a problem for the whole country. Massive amounts of food derive from the use of groundwater in the U.S. and we can’t just shift production easily. This would cause huge disruptions in the food supply and for the economy. It requires federal solutions. It’s a problem for America.
- linuxftw 3y ago
  We exports huge amounts of grain. The groundwater we're depleting isn't for our own use, it's to feed other countries. I don't see why this requires a federal solution. Those states own/control their own water. If they want to use it all up, that's their problem. It's all going to get used up eventually.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    The states do not control their own water, because rivers (and aquifers) cross state boundaries. The states have formed various compacts, under the supervision of the federal government, the detail how water will be shared among them. These cover, for example, the Colorado, Rio Grande and Pecos rivers. And if Kansas drains the Oglalla aquifer, that severely screws the other 4 or 5 states that draw from it.
  - cykotic 3y ago
    We exports huge amounts of grain. The groundwater we're depleting isn't for our own use, it's to feed other countries. Which is why it is a federal issue since the federal government controls interstate trade. Thus it’s accurate to say that America is depleting its aquifers. Which is the point of my response to you. That you think states control their own water suggests you don’t understand the issue. For instance, one state can’t just put a dam on river and declare all of the water theirs and not allow distribution of it to other states.
arp242 3y ago
I'm sorry, but have you actually read the article? Or even opened the page? The graphic right at the start shows problems throughout the country. The very first line is "Overuse is draining and damaging aquifers nationwide", the very first concrete example cited is Kansas, which is hardly the South-West, and the second example is New York state, which is even less in the South-West. It goes on with many examples, stories, and anecdotes from outside the South-West.
- linuxftw 3y ago
  You can look at the 'record lows' map and see that the vast majority of these wells are in the south west and California. And for the east coast and Mississippi region, they don't use deep aquifer wells, they use rain-charged ground water wells that fluctuate with the climate.
- goodbyesf 3y ago
  > and the second example is New York state New York and pretty much all states east of the mississippi suffer from an overabundance of rainwater/water. Water will never be a long term problem here, at least not for a very very very long time. As for kansas, no offense, but who cares? There have always been supposed water issues in that part. If the fear mongers were right, kansas would have been a barren deserted wasteland decades ago. Of course if the fear mongers were right, civilization would have ended already due to peak oil, global cooling, global warming, 2012, the pandemic, etc. BTW, more than 70% of americans live east of the mississippi. So america isn't using up its groundwater like there is no tomorrow. Small parts of america might be. But on the whole, the US is rich in water. Water isn't a problem in the US and will never be. But for some reason, the fear mongering never ends. Maybe fear sells. I don't know. Every fear years, the news runs the same fear mongering story. It's like groundhog's day. Whatever happened to lake mead? Did the apocalypse already happen and I miss it? I swear a few years ago, california was over due to water. California still around? Mount Rainier was supposed to lose its snow cap by now. Is Mt Rainier bald as a monk now?
lotsofpulp 3y ago
All the water California and the southwest uses is for producing crops and other food products the rest of the US uses.
PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
The general rule used to be that west of the 100th meridian, you cannot do commercial agriculture without irrigation (because not enough falls from the sky over the arable land). That boundary has now shifted east a bit, and is closer to the 98th meridian at this point. It's a "rule" that applies to all areas west of that line, with the exception of the zone west of the Cascades in OR and WA.

dopidopHN 3y ago

How large are those retention pool? Football size ?

linuxftw 3y ago
The farms I'm personally familiar with use multiple smaller ponds. I would say they have 1/10th of the acreage in retention ponds, if that.

kedean 3y ago

> The rest of the country has a surplus of water from rain I think this too strong of a generalization. The Great Plains region, for example, relies on the Ogalalla Aquifer for it's groundwater, which has been dropping at accelerating rates because so many farmers and ranchers draw heavily from it (even more than they would otherwise, thanks to crop subsidies), along with being a huge drinking water source. The depletion of groundwater is a big deal in that region.

droopyEyelids 3y ago

That's true. On the other hand California is 1/6th of the USA's economy, and 12% of the population. The "Southwest, Great Plains, plus California" is a significant part of the USA.

tristor 3y ago
I would argue that the NY Times writing about "America" as if California + New York == America far predates the magnitude of economic importance California and New York now have. There has long been a coastal bias in the US, which predates the migrations of business and population to the coasts, where everything in the middle is disdained and not due any consideration. The reality is, when it comes to groundwater anyway, all you need to do is look at land area vs mountain ranges and you can form a pretty intuitive understanding of water flows, since water flows to the lowest spots until it eventually reaches the sea or seeps into the ground. The parent to your post is very correct, California because most of the state is between the sea and a close-in mountain range has minimal ground water outside its direct watersheds, and must use intentional irrigation and pumping to move and use water. Consequently, they are one of the primary users of water originating in other parts of the country. As someone residing in Colorado, we are /well/ (no pun intended) aware of how water is used and how water rights work, and the reality is that California has an out-sized usage compared to other states, and frankly takes more than its fair share.
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  The vast majority of its "out-sized usage" is because it grows the fruits and vegetables for the rest of the nation. 75% or more of CA water use is for agriculture (also true of the other southwestern states). Per-capita use in cities and towns has been declining (in some cases, by huge amounts), and in general southwestern-resident humans use far less water than their upper-midwestern or east coast cousins.
  - linuxftw 3y ago
    California grows very little for the 'rest' of the nation. Outside of oranges and almonds, most produce is produced regionally during the growing season.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      Sorry, but this is absolutely false. > Over a third of the country’s vegetables and three-quarters of the country’s fruits and nuts are grown in California. https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/Statistics/ https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/Statistics/ > California is America’s food-producing powerhouse. Despite being home to just 4 percent of the farms and ranches in the country—83,217 of them, according to the most recent United States Census of Agriculture—the state generates 11.04 percent of the U.S. agricultural value. In 2021, that meant $54.5 million in cash receipts from agriculture poured into California. In fact, California is the fifth-largest supplier of food and other agricultural products in the world. The Central Valley alone—the 400-mile-long, 50-mile-wide region starting just south of Bakersfield and extending northward to Redding—produces 8 percent of America’s food supply though it contains just 1 percent of the country’s farmland. Half of all fruits and vegetables grown in the U.S. come from California, and the state effectively produces all (at least 99 percent) of America’s almonds, pistachios, pomegranates, and walnuts. California is also the nation’s leading grower of lima beans, lemons, kumquats, raspberries, strawberries, and spinach—to name just a few. https://californialocal.com/localnews/statewide/ca/article/show/36707-california-agriculture-dairy-wheat-fruit-vegetables/ https://californialocal.com/localnews/statewide/ca/article/s...

DrThunder 3y ago

I would say the entire west US. Moving from the midwest out the mountain west, it's crazy how much water they use out here. I never watered my lawn in the midwest and like you said crops were never irrigated. Rainwater was enough for all of that. Out here in the high desert EVERYTHING is watered, it all dies if it isn't. Unless you're higher mountain elevation, nothing grows except sage, cactus, and weeds.

fh973 3y ago

The article at least adds (regions of) Kansas, Arkansas, D.C., Maryland, Utah, Virginia to the list.

cykotic 3y ago

It’s odd to me that you don’t like the phrasing “America is using…” and want it to read “The Southwest portion of America…”. Millions of people live in the Southwest and it is part of America. It’s not a problem for just the Southwest. It’s a problem for the whole country. Massive amounts of food derive from the use of groundwater in the U.S. and we can’t just shift production easily. This would cause huge disruptions in the food supply and for the economy. It requires federal solutions. It’s a problem for America.

linuxftw 3y ago
We exports huge amounts of grain. The groundwater we're depleting isn't for our own use, it's to feed other countries. I don't see why this requires a federal solution. Those states own/control their own water. If they want to use it all up, that's their problem. It's all going to get used up eventually.
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  The states do not control their own water, because rivers (and aquifers) cross state boundaries. The states have formed various compacts, under the supervision of the federal government, the detail how water will be shared among them. These cover, for example, the Colorado, Rio Grande and Pecos rivers. And if Kansas drains the Oglalla aquifer, that severely screws the other 4 or 5 states that draw from it.
- cykotic 3y ago
  We exports huge amounts of grain. The groundwater we're depleting isn't for our own use, it's to feed other countries. Which is why it is a federal issue since the federal government controls interstate trade. Thus it’s accurate to say that America is depleting its aquifers. Which is the point of my response to you. That you think states control their own water suggests you don’t understand the issue. For instance, one state can’t just put a dam on river and declare all of the water theirs and not allow distribution of it to other states.

arp242 3y ago

I'm sorry, but have you actually read the article? Or even opened the page? The graphic right at the start shows problems throughout the country. The very first line is "Overuse is draining and damaging aquifers nationwide", the very first concrete example cited is Kansas, which is hardly the South-West, and the second example is New York state, which is even less in the South-West. It goes on with many examples, stories, and anecdotes from outside the South-West.

linuxftw 3y ago
You can look at the 'record lows' map and see that the vast majority of these wells are in the south west and California. And for the east coast and Mississippi region, they don't use deep aquifer wells, they use rain-charged ground water wells that fluctuate with the climate.
goodbyesf 3y ago
> and the second example is New York state New York and pretty much all states east of the mississippi suffer from an overabundance of rainwater/water. Water will never be a long term problem here, at least not for a very very very long time. As for kansas, no offense, but who cares? There have always been supposed water issues in that part. If the fear mongers were right, kansas would have been a barren deserted wasteland decades ago. Of course if the fear mongers were right, civilization would have ended already due to peak oil, global cooling, global warming, 2012, the pandemic, etc. BTW, more than 70% of americans live east of the mississippi. So america isn't using up its groundwater like there is no tomorrow. Small parts of america might be. But on the whole, the US is rich in water. Water isn't a problem in the US and will never be. But for some reason, the fear mongering never ends. Maybe fear sells. I don't know. Every fear years, the news runs the same fear mongering story. It's like groundhog's day. Whatever happened to lake mead? Did the apocalypse already happen and I miss it? I swear a few years ago, california was over due to water. California still around? Mount Rainier was supposed to lose its snow cap by now. Is Mt Rainier bald as a monk now?

lotsofpulp 3y ago

All the water California and the southwest uses is for producing crops and other food products the rest of the US uses.

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago

The general rule used to be that west of the 100th meridian, you cannot do commercial agriculture without irrigation (because not enough falls from the sky over the arable land). That boundary has now shifted east a bit, and is closer to the 98th meridian at this point. It's a "rule" that applies to all areas west of that line, with the exception of the zone west of the Cascades in OR and WA.