5 ms·

Sweden During the Pandemic

34 points by fortran77 3y ago

giraffe_lady 3y ago
[flagged]
- mhb 3y ago
  Indeed, TFA says that given perfect knowledge, they would have done a better job of protecting nursing homes. Contra, I guess, the example of New York. I haven't heard though - has Cuomo suggested they might have done anything differently?
vpaulus 3y ago
Do not forget that what Sweden took action was accommodated to the general behaviour of the Swedes. They keep a reasonable distance at all. If any restriction is only a recommendation and not a strict rule, they comply anyway. They generally have better state of health than many - even European - country. Did Sweden act much better than other countries, and got much better outcome? Yes. Could the same work in other countries? Most likely not, except other Nordic states.
- mhb 3y ago
  That's pretty dismissive. The article mainly addresses the premise that Sweden's actions produced a better outcome than other countries including ones which had a predilection for social distancing. This is by no means universally conceded. It would be nice to think that other countries could learn something after accepting that Sweden actually had a better outcome.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    I'm not sure it's really dismissive. It's more that, even given a lack of strict government policy actions, Sweden ended up having as good or relatively better outcomes than many/most other countries. But I'm not sure be more like Sweden makes a very useful playbook--except insofar as the policy recommendation is to take a few high impact actions (e.g. around nursing homes, almost certainly vaccines, etc.) and otherwise have a fairly light touch.
- ghaff 3y ago
  The challenge is that Swedes tend to be relatively healthy, antisocial, and sensible (as suggested by the paper) isn't either very actionable or quantifiable. Though there is an implication (which is a clear agenda in this paper) that explicit government policies didn't make a whole lot of difference in this case.
- lambda_garden 3y ago
  Indeed. A question we should be asking is what the Swedish government should have done if faced by mass non-compliance
  - mhb 3y ago
    And before we ask that question we should ask how non-compliance is affected by edicts versus presentation of the costs/benefits of actions and the rationale for any suggestions.
ghaff 3y ago
Even if studies like this one come from a particular political slant, it's really hard to look at the data and discern that there was some combination of specific/actionable conditions, policies, and population behaviors that could have served as magic bullets for better long-term outcomes.
mannyv 3y ago
Soon people will be talking about Swedish exceptionalism. The fact is, COViD is a problem for those at high risk, and those risk factors were well known in the early days. One response could have been to make just that subset take precautions. But for some reason the vast majority of liberal societies went all totalitarian on their people. Why that was is as interesting as how Sweden did.
- undersuit 3y ago
  > the vast majority of liberal societies went all totalitarian on their people. No stop this nonsense. China was sealing apartments in 2020 to enforce quarantine. The worst that happened in the west was that we couldn't get dinner and beer at one of our many corporate restaurants that willingly shut down.
  - amadeuspagel 3y ago
    My brother and father were stopped by the police when going for a walk outside together. (They had passports with them, and since they're family it was accepted.)
    - giraffe_lady 3y ago
      Mine too but since they're black we just call that tuesday.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwaway5Am1k 3y ago
    Absolutely wrong, stop trying to rewrite history. Look at what happened in Melbourne, Australia. 1 hour of state mandated "outside" time per day, restrictions on gatherings, 5KM restrictions, 9PM curfews, park and gym closures, restrictions on shopping, public transport shutdown to stop protests, get the jab or lose your job. All that to "help" us, and we're living with the consequences to this day. Groceries 50%+ in the last 3 years. House prices are off the charts. Inflation that the government will blame on Russia, COVID supply shocks, aliens, but never their actions. The policies you backed well and truly fucked us. Own up to it.
fifilura 3y ago
FYI. The article author has a political agenda. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Norberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Norberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_Institute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_Institute (Edit, since I got downvotes. I am not saying he is wrong, but I still think the information is relevant to be aware of when reading the article. His bread and butter is not necessarily seeking the truth but to choose the narrative and facts that supports his political views. And of course getting views fornhisnarticle in a place like this is like hitting a home-run)
cjalmeida 3y ago
The nice thing about Nordic countries is that you got 4 of them that are quite comparable. Denmark had a stricter approach compared to Sweden and arguably had better outcomes and faster economic recovery.
black_13 3y ago
[dead]

34 points by fortran77 3y ago

giraffe_lady 3y ago

[flagged]

mhb 3y ago
Indeed, TFA says that given perfect knowledge, they would have done a better job of protecting nursing homes. Contra, I guess, the example of New York. I haven't heard though - has Cuomo suggested they might have done anything differently?

vpaulus 3y ago

Do not forget that what Sweden took action was accommodated to the general behaviour of the Swedes. They keep a reasonable distance at all. If any restriction is only a recommendation and not a strict rule, they comply anyway. They generally have better state of health than many - even European - country. Did Sweden act much better than other countries, and got much better outcome? Yes. Could the same work in other countries? Most likely not, except other Nordic states.

mhb 3y ago
That's pretty dismissive. The article mainly addresses the premise that Sweden's actions produced a better outcome than other countries including ones which had a predilection for social distancing. This is by no means universally conceded. It would be nice to think that other countries could learn something after accepting that Sweden actually had a better outcome.
- ghaff 3y ago
  I'm not sure it's really dismissive. It's more that, even given a lack of strict government policy actions, Sweden ended up having as good or relatively better outcomes than many/most other countries. But I'm not sure be more like Sweden makes a very useful playbook--except insofar as the policy recommendation is to take a few high impact actions (e.g. around nursing homes, almost certainly vaccines, etc.) and otherwise have a fairly light touch.
ghaff 3y ago
The challenge is that Swedes tend to be relatively healthy, antisocial, and sensible (as suggested by the paper) isn't either very actionable or quantifiable. Though there is an implication (which is a clear agenda in this paper) that explicit government policies didn't make a whole lot of difference in this case.
lambda_garden 3y ago
Indeed. A question we should be asking is what the Swedish government should have done if faced by mass non-compliance
- mhb 3y ago
  And before we ask that question we should ask how non-compliance is affected by edicts versus presentation of the costs/benefits of actions and the rationale for any suggestions.

ghaff 3y ago

Even if studies like this one come from a particular political slant, it's really hard to look at the data and discern that there was some combination of specific/actionable conditions, policies, and population behaviors that could have served as magic bullets for better long-term outcomes.

mannyv 3y ago

Soon people will be talking about Swedish exceptionalism. The fact is, COViD is a problem for those at high risk, and those risk factors were well known in the early days. One response could have been to make just that subset take precautions. But for some reason the vast majority of liberal societies went all totalitarian on their people. Why that was is as interesting as how Sweden did.

undersuit 3y ago
> the vast majority of liberal societies went all totalitarian on their people. No stop this nonsense. China was sealing apartments in 2020 to enforce quarantine. The worst that happened in the west was that we couldn't get dinner and beer at one of our many corporate restaurants that willingly shut down.
- amadeuspagel 3y ago
  My brother and father were stopped by the police when going for a walk outside together. (They had passports with them, and since they're family it was accepted.)
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    Mine too but since they're black we just call that tuesday.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- throwaway5Am1k 3y ago
  Absolutely wrong, stop trying to rewrite history. Look at what happened in Melbourne, Australia. 1 hour of state mandated "outside" time per day, restrictions on gatherings, 5KM restrictions, 9PM curfews, park and gym closures, restrictions on shopping, public transport shutdown to stop protests, get the jab or lose your job. All that to "help" us, and we're living with the consequences to this day. Groceries 50%+ in the last 3 years. House prices are off the charts. Inflation that the government will blame on Russia, COVID supply shocks, aliens, but never their actions. The policies you backed well and truly fucked us. Own up to it.

fifilura 3y ago

FYI. The article author has a political agenda. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Norberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Norberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_Institute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_Institute (Edit, since I got downvotes. I am not saying he is wrong, but I still think the information is relevant to be aware of when reading the article. His bread and butter is not necessarily seeking the truth but to choose the narrative and facts that supports his political views. And of course getting views fornhisnarticle in a place like this is like hitting a home-run)

cjalmeida 3y ago

The nice thing about Nordic countries is that you got 4 of them that are quite comparable. Denmark had a stricter approach compared to Sweden and arguably had better outcomes and faster economic recovery.

black_13 3y ago

[dead]