4 ms·

Harsh Truths of Friendships During Difficult Times

10 points by theakak 3y ago

bell-cot 3y ago
Sad to say, but welcome to the modern capitalist world. Back in the day (how far back depends on where you are), things were often better in this area - with extended families, religious communities, neighbors, and friends generally more available and supportive than they are now. Vs. today - if your by-far #1 priority is optimizing your own life, for your own benefit - and you mostly sneer at traditional beliefs in a "hereafter", where virtuous acts or self-sacrifice will count in your favor - then a "friend in need" is obviously a burden you need to distance yourself from, or dump.
stuartjohnson12 3y ago
I think a major part of the issue is the psychological need for moral consistency. The Holy Madman donates almost all of his money and time to helping those in the most need. Almost all people would hate to be a Holy Madman - he is a bound slave forced by moral law to voluntarily make his quality of life hell forever for as long as there are people in a worse kind of hell. If you accept opting into charity to a moderate degree out of genuine moral concern (as opposed to status seeking or genuine enjoyment), then usually you also ought indulge more fully.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ralferoo 3y ago
It seems to me that this article is predicated on his friends not reaching out to him, leaving him to have to beg them to do things. Whilst it's true that some people might be less keen to hang out with their friends if all they ever do is moan about something, however I suspect with people who were previously good friends there's probably something else at play. A less cynical view is that his friends probably don't know what they can do. If e.g. his mother is dying, they know he's going to be busy. I suspect a lot of people will deliberately be not trying to invite people out to do something all the time because they don't want to be a nuisance, all the more if they know there's a lot of stuff going on in their lives already. Additionally, most people are just really busy worrying about their own lives, and while they would probably give up time to support you if you asked, if you're not asking, they're probably going to look after their wife / kids / job / whatever else it is that they don't have enough time for. It's very easy to forget about what your friends are going through for days, week or even months at a time, if you're busy all the time and your friends aren't initiating conversations with you either. A final observation is that friendship is rarely reciprocated the same way between individuals, rather you might be the person one friend goes to for relationship advice, but you might always ask someone else. There'll be a different person who asks you about work advice, and who you ask, etc... Things will generally balance out over all your friends over your lifetime, but for any given friendship, it's unlikely to be equal at any point, let alone at the point you're most in need. At that time, you'll find out "who your friends are", but in most cases you probably won't be the rock those friends need in a different situation, and they'll rely on someone else.
- AtlasBarfed 3y ago
  Long term depression is also very hard on the people around the depressed individual, which adds to the social isolation and a cycle that maintains (or worsens) the depression state. States of mental depression almost seem like a possession or a second personality, where the depression state fights to continue itself and subverts other parts of the brain to maintain or deepen the depressive state. Since it is so hard for normal people to give support over the length of depression (which seems hopeless and it doesn't help that the sufferer projects hopelessness), it simply wears out family and friends. It may also be an inherent defense mechanism of "normal" people to compartmentalize depression. Certainly there is enough things in the world that would depress anyone. Hey, you're going to die. Nature is brutal. Life is unfair and unforgiving. Everyone is subjected to a tsunami deluge of advertising trying to make you feel empty and fill it with buying things. I think people are deep down afraid of depression being contagious in some way, because who knows what people's breaking point is.
JohnFen 3y ago
There are different kinds of friendships, with different levels of intimacy. I have three "true friends" -- as the saying goes, a true friend is one who will help you bury a body at 3am with no questions asked -- and we've been such through thick and thin already. Those friends do not distance when times get really rough. But most of my friends aren't that close. They are the ones that are more like "fair weather friends" -- coworkers, activity partners, and so forth. Friends, absolutely, but situationally dependent. I would not expect them to be attentive when I'm going through a dark crisis. They just aren't that sort of relationship. I don't think this is a problem, I think this is normal.

10 points by theakak 3y ago

Sad to say, but welcome to the modern capitalist world. Back in the day (how far back depends on where you are), things were often better in this area - with extended families, religious communities, neighbors, and friends generally more available and supportive than they are now. Vs. today - if your by-far #1 priority is optimizing your own life, for your own benefit - and you mostly sneer at traditional beliefs in a "hereafter", where virtuous acts or self-sacrifice will count in your favor - then a "friend in need" is obviously a burden you need to distance yourself from, or dump.

stuartjohnson12 3y ago

I think a major part of the issue is the psychological need for moral consistency. The Holy Madman donates almost all of his money and time to helping those in the most need. Almost all people would hate to be a Holy Madman - he is a bound slave forced by moral law to voluntarily make his quality of life hell forever for as long as there are people in a worse kind of hell. If you accept opting into charity to a moderate degree out of genuine moral concern (as opposed to status seeking or genuine enjoyment), then usually you also ought indulge more fully.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ralferoo 3y ago

It seems to me that this article is predicated on his friends not reaching out to him, leaving him to have to beg them to do things. Whilst it's true that some people might be less keen to hang out with their friends if all they ever do is moan about something, however I suspect with people who were previously good friends there's probably something else at play. A less cynical view is that his friends probably don't know what they can do. If e.g. his mother is dying, they know he's going to be busy. I suspect a lot of people will deliberately be not trying to invite people out to do something all the time because they don't want to be a nuisance, all the more if they know there's a lot of stuff going on in their lives already. Additionally, most people are just really busy worrying about their own lives, and while they would probably give up time to support you if you asked, if you're not asking, they're probably going to look after their wife / kids / job / whatever else it is that they don't have enough time for. It's very easy to forget about what your friends are going through for days, week or even months at a time, if you're busy all the time and your friends aren't initiating conversations with you either. A final observation is that friendship is rarely reciprocated the same way between individuals, rather you might be the person one friend goes to for relationship advice, but you might always ask someone else. There'll be a different person who asks you about work advice, and who you ask, etc... Things will generally balance out over all your friends over your lifetime, but for any given friendship, it's unlikely to be equal at any point, let alone at the point you're most in need. At that time, you'll find out "who your friends are", but in most cases you probably won't be the rock those friends need in a different situation, and they'll rely on someone else.

AtlasBarfed 3y ago
Long term depression is also very hard on the people around the depressed individual, which adds to the social isolation and a cycle that maintains (or worsens) the depression state. States of mental depression almost seem like a possession or a second personality, where the depression state fights to continue itself and subverts other parts of the brain to maintain or deepen the depressive state. Since it is so hard for normal people to give support over the length of depression (which seems hopeless and it doesn't help that the sufferer projects hopelessness), it simply wears out family and friends. It may also be an inherent defense mechanism of "normal" people to compartmentalize depression. Certainly there is enough things in the world that would depress anyone. Hey, you're going to die. Nature is brutal. Life is unfair and unforgiving. Everyone is subjected to a tsunami deluge of advertising trying to make you feel empty and fill it with buying things. I think people are deep down afraid of depression being contagious in some way, because who knows what people's breaking point is.

JohnFen 3y ago

There are different kinds of friendships, with different levels of intimacy. I have three "true friends" -- as the saying goes, a true friend is one who will help you bury a body at 3am with no questions asked -- and we've been such through thick and thin already. Those friends do not distance when times get really rough. But most of my friends aren't that close. They are the ones that are more like "fair weather friends" -- coworkers, activity partners, and so forth. Friends, absolutely, but situationally dependent. I would not expect them to be attentive when I'm going through a dark crisis. They just aren't that sort of relationship. I don't think this is a problem, I think this is normal.