3 ms·

Fossil Fuel Subsidies Surged to Record $7 Trillion https://www.imf.org/en/Blogs/Articles/2023/08/24/fossil-fuel-subsidies-surged-to-record-7-trillion https://w

by myshpa 3y ago

Fossil Fuel Subsidies Surged to Record $7 Trillion https://www.imf.org/en/Blogs/Articles/2023/08/24/fossil-fuel-subsidies-surged-to-record-7-trillion https://www.imf.org/en/Blogs/Articles/2023/08/24/fossil-fuel... ... fossil-fuel subsidies rose by $2 trillion over the past two years as explicit subsidies (undercharging for supply costs) more than doubled to $1.3 trillion ... Our analysis shows that consumers did not pay for over $5 trillion of environmental costs last year. This number would be almost double if damage to the climate was valued at levels found in a recent study published in the scientific journal Nature ...

myrmidon 3y ago
I'm not defending our irresponsible Co2 emission behavior in any way, and this only applies to a part of your link, but I feel calling negative (future?) externalities "government subsidies" is simply dishonest reporting. I'd also argue that this framing is actively harmful, because it perpetuates the view that "big government" and "big oil corporations" are mainly to blame for lackluster action, but the inconvenient truth is that the average western citizen just does NOT want to sacrifice neither vacation air travel nor personal car, nor is he willing to pay more for energy/electricity. Government action (or lack thereof) mainly mirrors this popular sentiment-- its not a big lobbying conspiracy...
- myshpa 3y ago
  > calling negative (future?) externalities "government subsidies" is simply dishonest reporting If the government knows about those negative externalities, and chooses not to prevent or tax the behavior, but instead subsidizes that sector, how else would you describe it? > "big government" and "big oil corporations" are mainly to blame for lackluster action If one government takes action, those actions often get reversed within a few years. The issue isn't just one specific government; it's the system itself. Critics argue that neither capitalism nor communism can resolve this, but they're not the only systems possible. The real culprits include the growth imperative in our financial system, politicians' focus on short-term actions at the expense of long-term vision, the slow adoption of renewable energy, and subsidies for harmful sectors decades after their impacts are known, etc. We have only a few years/decades to reverse the effects of past actions; after that point, they'll become irreversible. We're in the overshoot for 50 years at this point, after all. Blaming one political side or the other doesn't solve the issue. We must tackle problems like climate change, pollution, biodiversity loss, overfishing, inequality, and the need for Universal Basic Income/Services across multiple fronts. We need a Great Reset/Rewrite; otherwise, we should brace for a Great Simplification.
  - myrmidon 3y ago
    > If the government knows about those negative externalities, and chooses not to prevent or tax the behavior, but instead subsidizes that sector, how else would you describe it? E.g. as "negative externatilites that were not appropriately taxed". Because "subsidies" implies tax dollars being spent to deteriorate the situation, while the reality is basically the reverse. And it is VERY obvious that this doesn't simply happen because "big oil" did so much lobbying that the government misrepresents the will of the people-- voters were visible in favor of subsidies and lower fuel prices (especially blatant during Ukraine-price spikes in Europe). Just picture running on a "100% fossil fuel taxation to be spent on improved public transport" platform-- what country you think would elect that right now? Much less re-elect... > We have only a few years/decades to reverse the effects of past actions; after that point, they'll become irreversible. I disagree with this viewpoint: I think long term consequences are already completely inevitable, any current and future actions are only gonna change the exact magnitude.
    - myshpa 3y ago
      > I think long term consequences are already completely inevitable Degradation vs. collapse. Collapse is still preventable, but the window is closing fast. If we'd stop fossil fuels, reform agriculture and reforest what we can, we'd be able to reverse the warming and let biodiversity rebound. Continue for a few more decades, and the carrying capacity falls drastically.
      - myrmidon 3y ago
        Collapse of what? Civilization? I don't buy into that at all; massive waves of climate refugees, environmental disasters, loss of coastal urban space, economical crises: sure-- but collapse of civilization?! I simply don't see that happening, to me that appears like completely unfounded pessimism. But feel free to try and change my view...
        myshpa 3y ago
        > Collapse of what? Civilization? I was referring to the collapse (significant degradation) of the environmental carrying capacity. In such a scenario, our civilization would implode on its own. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPb_0JZ6-Rc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPb_0JZ6-Rc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_overshoot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_overshoot https://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/st-matthew-island/ https://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/st-matthew-island/ > But feel free to try and change my view It's a complex topic ... I only can give you a few links. The system we live in is very complex ... and as in every complex system even a minor error can cripple the system. Just remember how much damage to the economy was caused by just one ship blocking the Suez. I don't think the system is able to handle large-scale agricultural failures, prolonged droughts or abrupt sea level rises. Everything seems to be changing more rapidly than predicted - from air and sea temperatures to thawing, droughts, biodiversity loss, etc. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2023/07/climate-change-tipping-points/674778/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2023/07/climate-... Climate Collapse Could Happen Fast - As temperature and weather records fall, Earth may be nearing so-called tipping points. https://www.livescience.com/planet-earth/climate-change/catastrophic-climate-doom-loops-could-start-in-just-15-years-new-study-warns https://www.livescience.com/planet-earth/climate-change/cata... Catastrophic climate 'doom loops' could start in just 15 years, new study warns https://www.iflscience.com/chances-of-societal-collapse-in-next-few-decades-is-sky-high-modelling-suggests-56867 https://www.iflscience.com/chances-of-societal-collapse-in-n... Chances Of Societal Collapse In Next Few Decades Is Sky High, Modelling Suggests https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2108146119 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2108146119 Climate Endgame: Exploring catastrophic climate change scenarios https://www.mdpi.com/2673-4060/4/3/32 https://www.mdpi.com/2673-4060/4/3/32 The Human Ecology of Overshoot: Why a Major ‘Population Correction’ Is Inevitable https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1810141115 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1810141115 Trajectories of the Earth System in the Anthropocene https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-023-01157-x https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-023-01157-x Earlier collapse of Anthropocene ecosystems driven by multiple faster and noisier drivers https://apnews.com/article/climate-united-nations-paris-europe-berlin-802ae4475c9047fb6d82ac88b37a690e https://apnews.com/article/climate-united-nations-paris-euro... UN warns Earth ‘firmly on track toward an unlivable world’ https://advisory.kpmg.us/articles/2021/limits-to-growth.html https://advisory.kpmg.us/articles/2021/limits-to-growth.html Limits to Growth https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jul/09/the-planet-warms-the-world-economy-cools-the-real-global-recession-is-ecological https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jul/09/the-planet-... The planet heats, the world economy cools – the real global recession is ecological https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01448-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01448-4 Humans are driving one million species to extinction https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/oct/13/almost-70-of-animal-populations-wiped-out-since-1970-report-reveals-aoe https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/oct/13/almost-7... Animal populations experience average decline of almost 70% since 1970, report reveals https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2023/08/ecological-cliff-edge/ https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2023/08/ecological-cliff-edge/ Ecological cliff edge
- ZeroGravitas 3y ago
  It literally is a big lobbying conspiracy.

by myshpa 3y ago

myrmidon 3y ago

I'm not defending our irresponsible Co2 emission behavior in any way, and this only applies to a part of your link, but I feel calling negative (future?) externalities "government subsidies" is simply dishonest reporting. I'd also argue that this framing is actively harmful, because it perpetuates the view that "big government" and "big oil corporations" are mainly to blame for lackluster action, but the inconvenient truth is that the average western citizen just does NOT want to sacrifice neither vacation air travel nor personal car, nor is he willing to pay more for energy/electricity. Government action (or lack thereof) mainly mirrors this popular sentiment-- its not a big lobbying conspiracy...

myshpa 3y ago
> calling negative (future?) externalities "government subsidies" is simply dishonest reporting If the government knows about those negative externalities, and chooses not to prevent or tax the behavior, but instead subsidizes that sector, how else would you describe it? > "big government" and "big oil corporations" are mainly to blame for lackluster action If one government takes action, those actions often get reversed within a few years. The issue isn't just one specific government; it's the system itself. Critics argue that neither capitalism nor communism can resolve this, but they're not the only systems possible. The real culprits include the growth imperative in our financial system, politicians' focus on short-term actions at the expense of long-term vision, the slow adoption of renewable energy, and subsidies for harmful sectors decades after their impacts are known, etc. We have only a few years/decades to reverse the effects of past actions; after that point, they'll become irreversible. We're in the overshoot for 50 years at this point, after all. Blaming one political side or the other doesn't solve the issue. We must tackle problems like climate change, pollution, biodiversity loss, overfishing, inequality, and the need for Universal Basic Income/Services across multiple fronts. We need a Great Reset/Rewrite; otherwise, we should brace for a Great Simplification.
- myrmidon 3y ago
  > If the government knows about those negative externalities, and chooses not to prevent or tax the behavior, but instead subsidizes that sector, how else would you describe it? E.g. as "negative externatilites that were not appropriately taxed". Because "subsidies" implies tax dollars being spent to deteriorate the situation, while the reality is basically the reverse. And it is VERY obvious that this doesn't simply happen because "big oil" did so much lobbying that the government misrepresents the will of the people-- voters were visible in favor of subsidies and lower fuel prices (especially blatant during Ukraine-price spikes in Europe). Just picture running on a "100% fossil fuel taxation to be spent on improved public transport" platform-- what country you think would elect that right now? Much less re-elect... > We have only a few years/decades to reverse the effects of past actions; after that point, they'll become irreversible. I disagree with this viewpoint: I think long term consequences are already completely inevitable, any current and future actions are only gonna change the exact magnitude.
  - myshpa 3y ago
    > I think long term consequences are already completely inevitable Degradation vs. collapse. Collapse is still preventable, but the window is closing fast. If we'd stop fossil fuels, reform agriculture and reforest what we can, we'd be able to reverse the warming and let biodiversity rebound. Continue for a few more decades, and the carrying capacity falls drastically.
    - myrmidon 3y ago
      Collapse of what? Civilization? I don't buy into that at all; massive waves of climate refugees, environmental disasters, loss of coastal urban space, economical crises: sure-- but collapse of civilization?! I simply don't see that happening, to me that appears like completely unfounded pessimism. But feel free to try and change my view...
      - myshpa 3y ago
        > Collapse of what? Civilization? I was referring to the collapse (significant degradation) of the environmental carrying capacity. In such a scenario, our civilization would implode on its own. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPb_0JZ6-Rc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPb_0JZ6-Rc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_overshoot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_overshoot https://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/st-matthew-island/ https://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/st-matthew-island/ > But feel free to try and change my view It's a complex topic ... I only can give you a few links. The system we live in is very complex ... and as in every complex system even a minor error can cripple the system. Just remember how much damage to the economy was caused by just one ship blocking the Suez. I don't think the system is able to handle large-scale agricultural failures, prolonged droughts or abrupt sea level rises. Everything seems to be changing more rapidly than predicted - from air and sea temperatures to thawing, droughts, biodiversity loss, etc. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2023/07/climate-change-tipping-points/674778/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2023/07/climate-... Climate Collapse Could Happen Fast - As temperature and weather records fall, Earth may be nearing so-called tipping points. https://www.livescience.com/planet-earth/climate-change/catastrophic-climate-doom-loops-could-start-in-just-15-years-new-study-warns https://www.livescience.com/planet-earth/climate-change/cata... Catastrophic climate 'doom loops' could start in just 15 years, new study warns https://www.iflscience.com/chances-of-societal-collapse-in-next-few-decades-is-sky-high-modelling-suggests-56867 https://www.iflscience.com/chances-of-societal-collapse-in-n... Chances Of Societal Collapse In Next Few Decades Is Sky High, Modelling Suggests https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2108146119 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2108146119 Climate Endgame: Exploring catastrophic climate change scenarios https://www.mdpi.com/2673-4060/4/3/32 https://www.mdpi.com/2673-4060/4/3/32 The Human Ecology of Overshoot: Why a Major ‘Population Correction’ Is Inevitable https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1810141115 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1810141115 Trajectories of the Earth System in the Anthropocene https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-023-01157-x https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-023-01157-x Earlier collapse of Anthropocene ecosystems driven by multiple faster and noisier drivers https://apnews.com/article/climate-united-nations-paris-europe-berlin-802ae4475c9047fb6d82ac88b37a690e https://apnews.com/article/climate-united-nations-paris-euro... UN warns Earth ‘firmly on track toward an unlivable world’ https://advisory.kpmg.us/articles/2021/limits-to-growth.html https://advisory.kpmg.us/articles/2021/limits-to-growth.html Limits to Growth https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jul/09/the-planet-warms-the-world-economy-cools-the-real-global-recession-is-ecological https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jul/09/the-planet-... The planet heats, the world economy cools – the real global recession is ecological https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01448-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01448-4 Humans are driving one million species to extinction https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/oct/13/almost-70-of-animal-populations-wiped-out-since-1970-report-reveals-aoe https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/oct/13/almost-7... Animal populations experience average decline of almost 70% since 1970, report reveals https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2023/08/ecological-cliff-edge/ https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2023/08/ecological-cliff-edge/ Ecological cliff edge
ZeroGravitas 3y ago
It literally is a big lobbying conspiracy.