6 ms·

I think second syndrome is probably a significant factor, but I can also believe that ditching Python was also a significant factor. EDIT: I’m being rate limit

I think second syndrome is probably a significant factor, but I can also believe that ditching Python was also a significant factor. EDIT: I’m being rate limited because I guess my comments are too spicy for the HN mods, but anyway I agree that there’s no reason other non-Python languages would fare much worse than Elixir.

miroljub 3y ago
Even if we take this as a factor, there's still no reason why would a Go or Java or SBCL implementation be significantly worse than Elixir.
- 83457 3y ago
  Isn't the major difference here compared to others the BEAM?
  - throwaway894345 3y ago
    You need to advance a theory about how the BEAM could make a 95% improvement in a way the alternatives cannot. For example, a Go has a very good asynchronous story as well and while it may not be exactly as good as BEAM languages, it makes up for it in straight line execution performance. I’ve personally rewritten a few carefully optimized Python applications in pretty naive Go (without significant rearchitecting) and witnessed 50X-1000X performance improvements. And moreover Go allows for more optimization beyond what Python allows (e.g., consolidating allocations and lifting them out of the hot path).
- pdimitar 3y ago
  There is a reason: the BEAM is almost not prone to huge GC pauses. Bigger load results in every actor responding very slightly slower. Nothing else. Many other systems don't have this property. They fall down under pressure. Gosh, a huge chunk of HN is always so dismissive. At least read up a bit beforehand, man. The criticisms should be informed and benefit the readers, not only express a generic skepticism.
  - SanderNL 3y ago
    That does not in any way explain a drop of 95%, which IMO is ridiculous and points to other issues. The system they created now is totally different from the one they had. It’s more efficient by an insane margin. Choice of language seems like it would have trouble breaking the top 5 major reasons.
    - pdimitar 3y ago
      Why is it ridiculous? I migrated Rails apps to Elixir before, we reduced from 15 servers to 3, and 1 was basically "if crap hits the fan", we could have gotten away with 2 easily. It's worrying that a supposedly high-quality forum like HN receives comments with no substance. If you have an actual counter-argument, let's discuss. If not, well, not an interesting exchange.
      - throwaway894345 3y ago
        You’re comparing Elixir to Python and Rails. Many of us have seen Python replaced with other languages for an astronomical improvement. Python and Ruby are the slowest category of languages; they’re easily beaten and you need to offer some evidence as to why the improvement was derived from migrating to Elixir specifically rather than moving away from Python/Rails.
        pdimitar 3y ago
        Sure, not wrong on the outset, but you do come across as dismissive of Elixir while stating this.
        throwaway894345 3y ago
        I'm not dismissive of Elixir, I'm dismissive that Elixir magically solved this problem in a way other languages couldn't. If you have some supporting evidence or rationale as to why Elixir is uniquely able to solve this problem, I'm happy to hear it, but so far you've offered up "low latency GC" which isn't unique to Elixir and itself doesn't adequately explain the degree of improvement over Python (GC latency alone doesn't reduce from 200 servers to 4). Again, I'm happy to entertain arguments about why Elixir is uniquely able to improve performance, but I'm not going to take it on faith (which you interpret as 'dismissive of Elixir').

miroljub 3y ago

Even if we take this as a factor, there's still no reason why would a Go or Java or SBCL implementation be significantly worse than Elixir.

83457 3y ago
Isn't the major difference here compared to others the BEAM?
- throwaway894345 3y ago
  You need to advance a theory about how the BEAM could make a 95% improvement in a way the alternatives cannot. For example, a Go has a very good asynchronous story as well and while it may not be exactly as good as BEAM languages, it makes up for it in straight line execution performance. I’ve personally rewritten a few carefully optimized Python applications in pretty naive Go (without significant rearchitecting) and witnessed 50X-1000X performance improvements. And moreover Go allows for more optimization beyond what Python allows (e.g., consolidating allocations and lifting them out of the hot path).
pdimitar 3y ago
There is a reason: the BEAM is almost not prone to huge GC pauses. Bigger load results in every actor responding very slightly slower. Nothing else. Many other systems don't have this property. They fall down under pressure. Gosh, a huge chunk of HN is always so dismissive. At least read up a bit beforehand, man. The criticisms should be informed and benefit the readers, not only express a generic skepticism.
- SanderNL 3y ago
  That does not in any way explain a drop of 95%, which IMO is ridiculous and points to other issues. The system they created now is totally different from the one they had. It’s more efficient by an insane margin. Choice of language seems like it would have trouble breaking the top 5 major reasons.
  - pdimitar 3y ago
    Why is it ridiculous? I migrated Rails apps to Elixir before, we reduced from 15 servers to 3, and 1 was basically "if crap hits the fan", we could have gotten away with 2 easily. It's worrying that a supposedly high-quality forum like HN receives comments with no substance. If you have an actual counter-argument, let's discuss. If not, well, not an interesting exchange.
    - throwaway894345 3y ago
      You’re comparing Elixir to Python and Rails. Many of us have seen Python replaced with other languages for an astronomical improvement. Python and Ruby are the slowest category of languages; they’re easily beaten and you need to offer some evidence as to why the improvement was derived from migrating to Elixir specifically rather than moving away from Python/Rails.
      - pdimitar 3y ago
        Sure, not wrong on the outset, but you do come across as dismissive of Elixir while stating this.
        throwaway894345 3y ago
        I'm not dismissive of Elixir, I'm dismissive that Elixir magically solved this problem in a way other languages couldn't. If you have some supporting evidence or rationale as to why Elixir is uniquely able to solve this problem, I'm happy to hear it, but so far you've offered up "low latency GC" which isn't unique to Elixir and itself doesn't adequately explain the degree of improvement over Python (GC latency alone doesn't reduce from 200 servers to 4). Again, I'm happy to entertain arguments about why Elixir is uniquely able to improve performance, but I'm not going to take it on faith (which you interpret as 'dismissive of Elixir').