5 ms·

Why isn't it reasonable to blame the individual when the individual EU consumer manages to cause half the pollution of the individual US consumer?

truculent 3y ago
Do you think the EU consumers are trying harder than the US ones?
- chpatrick 3y ago
  Yes, absolutely.
  - staunton 3y ago
    Most people in either region are not making any significant effort. They just live their lives like everyone else around them. The difference is in what that looks like. Anyway, what's with this dichotomy "corporations should change behavior" vs. "consumers should change behavior"? Those two interact and influence each other. Obviously, both must change their behavior. This is a process that must be bootstrapped.
    - chpatrick 3y ago
      That's definitely true and top-down regulation is important so the whole economy has to clean up its act and it's not a competitive disadvantage for any one company to do it. However, I don't like this frequently repeated claim that "it's actually big companies that are polluting!". They're polluting on our behalf, that's not an excuse.
      - omeid2 3y ago
        It is more along the lines of "I can't do much personally against big companies". In the same way that you can't just "personally" create a better public transport system instead of driving.
        chpatrick 3y ago
        You can absolutely personally not buy so much shit from big companies. You can also vote for more public transport, which most americans don't.
      - DarkNova6 3y ago
        And big oil & friends are massively lobbying to keep it just the way it is. It's easy to buy a senator, in same cases 10k are all you need to get his support. Edit: Since the maximum nesting was reached. I will leave it at saying that "A party system is twice as good as a one party system".
        chpatrick 3y ago
        You still need people to vote for them, and then the responsibility is on the individual voter.
- quickthrower2 3y ago
  No of course not. It is surprisingly different though. Is it all the nukes and renewables?
fsloth 3y ago
One of the structural reasons is that US produces most of it's own energy (aka hydrocarbons) and has enough left to export, while afaik EU imports 50% of the energy it needs.
DarkNova6 3y ago
I am form the EU and I don't "manage" anything. It just happens that on average, Europe has more efficient infrastructure, more strict regulation on pollution and is massively supporting green energy. Don't be fooled to believe that your personal life-choices will make the difference. In most countries 50% of all emissions are determined by the electricity you are consuming with transportation coming in second. The US used to be a railroad country. But that was bad for big oil, cars and aircraft so it was dismantled.
- chpatrick 3y ago
  When it comes to being forced to drive in the US, sure, but everything in the US from cars to buildings to meals is massively oversized compared to Europe. That's a personal choice. Many americans also proudly vote against environmental legislation or public transport infrastructure. That's also a personal choice. Blaming big oil for that is just an excuse.
  - DarkNova6 3y ago
    Oversized by how much? 100%? That alone cannot explain why the US pollutes twice as much. And as I have said, most of pollution comes from energy production. You are missing the mark.
    - chpatrick 3y ago
      If the consumers consume twice as much then energy production will pollute twice as much, that's exactly my point.
      - DarkNova6 3y ago
        Logically, this is correct. However, your point is irrelevant as you have insufficient data to prove it. Stating that the average US citizen consumes twice as much is quite a daring that needs to be proven.
- mcv 3y ago
christophilus 3y ago
I think it’s more complicated than that. It’s pretty easy to live in most western European cities without a car. It’s almost impossible to live well in most American cities without several cars per family. America has been engineers around environmentally unfriendly habits. Today’s consumer has little to do with the massive foundation on which their society rests. Edit: my family has only one car, but it’s because I hate driving / commuting and have worked remotely for 10 years. If I had to drive to work, we’d have two cars.
- chpatrick 3y ago
  Today's consumer can choose to not buy a huge pickup truck or eat beef three meals a day, or not vote against the new bike lane.
  - christophilus 3y ago
    Yeah. I do all those things. I'm vegan and I have a single car, and I support local walking and biking trails. But even so, I bet I'm not as green as the average European because I still have to drive far more than they do.
    - chpatrick 3y ago
      That's great to hear but there's a country full of people who don't do that.

truculent 3y ago

Do you think the EU consumers are trying harder than the US ones?

chpatrick 3y ago
Yes, absolutely.
- staunton 3y ago
  Most people in either region are not making any significant effort. They just live their lives like everyone else around them. The difference is in what that looks like. Anyway, what's with this dichotomy "corporations should change behavior" vs. "consumers should change behavior"? Those two interact and influence each other. Obviously, both must change their behavior. This is a process that must be bootstrapped.
  - chpatrick 3y ago
    That's definitely true and top-down regulation is important so the whole economy has to clean up its act and it's not a competitive disadvantage for any one company to do it. However, I don't like this frequently repeated claim that "it's actually big companies that are polluting!". They're polluting on our behalf, that's not an excuse.
    - omeid2 3y ago
      It is more along the lines of "I can't do much personally against big companies". In the same way that you can't just "personally" create a better public transport system instead of driving.
      - chpatrick 3y ago
        You can absolutely personally not buy so much shit from big companies. You can also vote for more public transport, which most americans don't.
    - DarkNova6 3y ago
      And big oil & friends are massively lobbying to keep it just the way it is. It's easy to buy a senator, in same cases 10k are all you need to get his support. Edit: Since the maximum nesting was reached. I will leave it at saying that "A party system is twice as good as a one party system".
      - chpatrick 3y ago
        You still need people to vote for them, and then the responsibility is on the individual voter.
quickthrower2 3y ago
No of course not. It is surprisingly different though. Is it all the nukes and renewables?

fsloth 3y ago

One of the structural reasons is that US produces most of it's own energy (aka hydrocarbons) and has enough left to export, while afaik EU imports 50% of the energy it needs.

DarkNova6 3y ago

I am form the EU and I don't "manage" anything. It just happens that on average, Europe has more efficient infrastructure, more strict regulation on pollution and is massively supporting green energy. Don't be fooled to believe that your personal life-choices will make the difference. In most countries 50% of all emissions are determined by the electricity you are consuming with transportation coming in second. The US used to be a railroad country. But that was bad for big oil, cars and aircraft so it was dismantled.

chpatrick 3y ago
When it comes to being forced to drive in the US, sure, but everything in the US from cars to buildings to meals is massively oversized compared to Europe. That's a personal choice. Many americans also proudly vote against environmental legislation or public transport infrastructure. That's also a personal choice. Blaming big oil for that is just an excuse.
- DarkNova6 3y ago
  Oversized by how much? 100%? That alone cannot explain why the US pollutes twice as much. And as I have said, most of pollution comes from energy production. You are missing the mark.
  - chpatrick 3y ago
    If the consumers consume twice as much then energy production will pollute twice as much, that's exactly my point.
    - DarkNova6 3y ago
      Logically, this is correct. However, your point is irrelevant as you have insufficient data to prove it. Stating that the average US citizen consumes twice as much is quite a daring that needs to be proven.
mcv 3y ago

christophilus 3y ago

I think it’s more complicated than that. It’s pretty easy to live in most western European cities without a car. It’s almost impossible to live well in most American cities without several cars per family. America has been engineers around environmentally unfriendly habits. Today’s consumer has little to do with the massive foundation on which their society rests. Edit: my family has only one car, but it’s because I hate driving / commuting and have worked remotely for 10 years. If I had to drive to work, we’d have two cars.

chpatrick 3y ago
Today's consumer can choose to not buy a huge pickup truck or eat beef three meals a day, or not vote against the new bike lane.
- christophilus 3y ago
  Yeah. I do all those things. I'm vegan and I have a single car, and I support local walking and biking trails. But even so, I bet I'm not as green as the average European because I still have to drive far more than they do.
  - chpatrick 3y ago
    That's great to hear but there's a country full of people who don't do that.