8 ms·

I am incredibly in favour of unions in all industries, but this one I have serious doubts it will ever happen. I'm gonna be un-PC and reach for a metaphor invol

by jtode 3y ago

I am incredibly in favour of unions in all industries, but this one I have serious doubts it will ever happen. I'm gonna be un-PC and reach for a metaphor involving slavery - not because I am comparing tech workers, of which I am one, to slaves, but because I think it's the best real-world example of how oppression is distributed by hubristic figureheads of feudalistic systems. If you ever saw Spike Lee's "Malcolm X" biopic (or know about Malcolm X through other channels), there is a scene where he talks about the existence, during US Slavery, of "field" and "house" slaves, who tended to live in those same places they worked. Here is a real X speech that is very similar to what is in the movie, though the movie script distills it better for modern ears: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf7rsCAfQCo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf7rsCAfQCo Now if you take three groups at Amazon - warehouse workers, tech workers, and C-level executives, they all kinda slot into those roles very well, don't they? Again, not that we're slaves. But then, Jim Crow wasn't slavery either, right? Oppression comes in many flavours, some of them stronger, some of them weaker, but it has the same features, always, including the divide and conquer strategy. The axe's handle being recognizably wooden. This is all very old stuff. Ancestral. Atavistic. The problem runs deeper still. Even among the lowest working class, they have been fed on tidbits of heady turkish delight which says that if they do everything right, they can be one of the oppressor class. Like the midway lackey whose job is to walk around carrying a giant teddy bear that nobody will ever actually win, they are even given high-profile examples, lottery winners, pop stars from common backgrounds, tech "mafia" who live as monied dilletantes on megayachts, tipping their hats to Saudi princes and Russian gangsters. In the end, the workers of tech are just well-kept poodles who will heel to their masters and be loyal to the point of abject moral failure, just like the house slave. Look how much better we are treated than him. Fagedaboudit. If you want a just world, be a Socialist. Read Marx for real. And join the rest of the historically frustrated who will die watching humanity flagellate itself. If there's hope, it's in the proles.

salawat 3y ago
You aren't that far off. Much of what is in the realm of "management theory" is rehashed from the heady days of slavery if you trace it's inspiration back far enough, at least in the United States. Basically, if you aren't an independent trades/craftsperson, you're being handled by the same corpus of institutional knowledge that kept ye olde plantation running smoothly. Less outright violence. Still there though.
- liquidpele 3y ago
  Moreso factories than plantations.
- rchaud 3y ago
  Modern management science pulls heavily from WW2 organizational tactics in western militaries when conscription was common and the idea of conscientious objection was not well received.
  - salawat 3y ago
    Give https://www.amazon.com/Going-Postal-Rebellion-Workplaces-Columbine/dp/1932360824/ https://www.amazon.com/Going-Postal-Rebellion-Workplaces-Col... a good read through. Many, many facets of labor relations didn't change one iota from far before WWII. There's an elitism inherent in American culture that is just a right pain in the arse to shake off. Take Ames dumping on Reagan with a grain of salt, but he does a fantastic job of extending the line of labor relations culture quite a ways back beyond merely WWII. Though I won't argue that things got very turbid around that time specifically because of the perceived existential threat the War created. I still maintain, however, that no matter how unpopular labor movements were at the time, that they dug in was still an invaluable act of civic courage. It is at such times that resistance is most important, as the majority is all too eager to turn a blind eye to the suffering they have wrought.
nielsbot 3y ago
To quote a wise man: "¿Por qué no los dos?"
r00fus 3y ago
I think a lot of this hinges on tech workers thinking they're not "the proles" while management sure as hell thinks they are (or should be, or "will be soon") and makes moves in that direction.
- taylodl 3y ago
  It does - and tech workers definitely think they're not "the proles." They have no idea that management sees them the same as the janitor. They think they're above that. Hubris. Now maybe they'll figure out they've been the janitors all along. They thought they were changing the world. All they were doing is making a boatload of money for somebody else. Tale as old as time.
lr1970 3y ago
> If you want a just world, be a Socialist. Read Marx for real. And join the rest of the historically frustrated who will die watching humanity flagellate itself. If there's hope, it's in the proles. Socialism and Marxism were tried in 20-th century several times -- Russia, China, "Socialist Block" of East European countries under Soviet control, Cuba, etc. Somehow every attempt at creating a decent non-capitalist society quickly evolved in horrendous anti-utopia. I am genuinely interested in understanding why Marxism and Socialism never worked out as intended (might be with the exception of small North European countries)?
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  In contrast to "Socialism" (Big S), democratic socialism seems to be possible and provides evidence of effectiveness, with the Nordic Model being the reference example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
  - skinnymuch 3y ago
    That’s Social Democracy which is just capitalism.
    - nielsbot 3y ago
      Surely "capitalism" and "socialism" aren't binary choices. You can have well-regulated capitalism where excess profits are channeled to help those who would otherwise be left to fend for themselves due to "not winning at capitalism"
      - skinnymuch 3y ago
        That’s just capitalism. Capitalism was never ever without any regulation. Sure technically most things are hybrids, but to act like what almost the entire world isn’t mainly capitalist is incorrect. Also they are sort of binary. The means of production are in the hands of the workers in socialism and in the hands of the bourgeoisie in capitalism.

by jtode 3y ago

salawat 3y ago

You aren't that far off. Much of what is in the realm of "management theory" is rehashed from the heady days of slavery if you trace it's inspiration back far enough, at least in the United States. Basically, if you aren't an independent trades/craftsperson, you're being handled by the same corpus of institutional knowledge that kept ye olde plantation running smoothly. Less outright violence. Still there though.

liquidpele 3y ago
Moreso factories than plantations.
rchaud 3y ago
Modern management science pulls heavily from WW2 organizational tactics in western militaries when conscription was common and the idea of conscientious objection was not well received.
- salawat 3y ago
  Give https://www.amazon.com/Going-Postal-Rebellion-Workplaces-Columbine/dp/1932360824/ https://www.amazon.com/Going-Postal-Rebellion-Workplaces-Col... a good read through. Many, many facets of labor relations didn't change one iota from far before WWII. There's an elitism inherent in American culture that is just a right pain in the arse to shake off. Take Ames dumping on Reagan with a grain of salt, but he does a fantastic job of extending the line of labor relations culture quite a ways back beyond merely WWII. Though I won't argue that things got very turbid around that time specifically because of the perceived existential threat the War created. I still maintain, however, that no matter how unpopular labor movements were at the time, that they dug in was still an invaluable act of civic courage. It is at such times that resistance is most important, as the majority is all too eager to turn a blind eye to the suffering they have wrought.

nielsbot 3y ago

To quote a wise man: "¿Por qué no los dos?"

r00fus 3y ago

I think a lot of this hinges on tech workers thinking they're not "the proles" while management sure as hell thinks they are (or should be, or "will be soon") and makes moves in that direction.

taylodl 3y ago
It does - and tech workers definitely think they're not "the proles." They have no idea that management sees them the same as the janitor. They think they're above that. Hubris. Now maybe they'll figure out they've been the janitors all along. They thought they were changing the world. All they were doing is making a boatload of money for somebody else. Tale as old as time.

lr1970 3y ago

> If you want a just world, be a Socialist. Read Marx for real. And join the rest of the historically frustrated who will die watching humanity flagellate itself. If there's hope, it's in the proles. Socialism and Marxism were tried in 20-th century several times -- Russia, China, "Socialist Block" of East European countries under Soviet control, Cuba, etc. Somehow every attempt at creating a decent non-capitalist society quickly evolved in horrendous anti-utopia. I am genuinely interested in understanding why Marxism and Socialism never worked out as intended (might be with the exception of small North European countries)?

toomuchtodo 3y ago
In contrast to "Socialism" (Big S), democratic socialism seems to be possible and provides evidence of effectiveness, with the Nordic Model being the reference example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
- skinnymuch 3y ago
  That’s Social Democracy which is just capitalism.
  - nielsbot 3y ago
    Surely "capitalism" and "socialism" aren't binary choices. You can have well-regulated capitalism where excess profits are channeled to help those who would otherwise be left to fend for themselves due to "not winning at capitalism"
    - skinnymuch 3y ago
      That’s just capitalism. Capitalism was never ever without any regulation. Sure technically most things are hybrids, but to act like what almost the entire world isn’t mainly capitalist is incorrect. Also they are sort of binary. The means of production are in the hands of the workers in socialism and in the hands of the bourgeoisie in capitalism.