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No, I think Europe and especially the US are both fine with having blood on our hands. Depends whose blood, that’s all. Also don’t mix morals and geopolitics,

by blub 3y ago

No, I think Europe and especially the US are both fine with having blood on our hands. Depends whose blood, that’s all. Also don’t mix morals and geopolitics, they’re often incompatible. Our safety in Europe is at risk because of our stupid wars destabilizing the Middle East and because we’re stuck between great power rivalries, most recently as vassals in training of the US, which wants to drag us in its conflict with China. See https://ecfr.eu/publication/the-art-of-vassalisation-how-russias-war-on-ukraine-has-transformed-transatlantic-relations/ https://ecfr.eu/publication/the-art-of-vassalisation-how-rus...

phatfish 3y ago
Thanks for the Kremlin talking points on the Middle East. I'm sure instability in another continent is more risk to Europeans than the Russians having control over our energy AND food production -- had they taken all of Ukraine as Putin planned. Luckily the Ukrainians are willing and able fight Russia for us, with reluctant support from their allies. An utterly embarrassing situation for most European countries.
- blub 3y ago
  Everyone should be familiar with the US and (Western-)Europe led wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria which destabilized those countries with horrendous human costs. Two important consequences for the EU were: * the refugee crisis in Europe peaking in 2015 and still continuing today, which led to a reaction from local EU populations and a political reorientation towards the far-right. * radicalization (including the rise of ISIS/ISIL) which in turn led to terrorist attacks and an increased interest in mass surveillance within the EU. If that happens to be a Kremlin talking point, then those Kremlin guys and girls are correct. As for the Ukrainians fighting Russia “for us”, that’s definitely an EU/Washington/Kiev talking point and it’s objectively wrong: they’re fighting for their own country. Our military support and tens of billions of EUR of financial support are keeping Ukraine in the fight much longer than they would have managed by themselves. The EU rep for foreign affairs and security policy pointed out that Ukraine would fall within days without our “embarrassing” support. But if you feel we’re not doing enough, there’s always the foreign legion…
  - hdjjhhvvhga 3y ago
    > Everyone should be familiar with the US and (Western-)Europe led wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria You are mixing things up. Western Europe didn't lead any of these wars. The UK joined the USA in Iraq and Afghanistan. It was a stupid decision but it had nothing to do with the rest of Europe. Unless you claim UK=EU. The Kremlin propaganda is repeating these statements very often so I can understand some people started believing these lies.
hdjjhhvvhga 3y ago
I don't know how much Middle East blood is on our hands as Europeans were totally against the war in Afghanistan and the invasion of Iraq. 36 million people protested. In Rome itself, 3 million people. No other event has managed to put that many people on the streets. And Bush haven't managed to build a great coalition for his stupid war. His famous "you forgot Poland" will be laughed at for many years. These two wars were stupid before they ever begun, and Europeans knew about this from the very beginning and they did what they could to stop them. An yet, Kremlin loves to say Russians are just doing the same things as European did. We are not the same.
- blub 3y ago
  Europeans failed at stopping them and no one was punished. That’s the only thing that matters, trying is not good enough. I agree we’re not the same as the Kremlin and I like to use a metaphor of Western vs Eastern EU corruption to illustrate the difference: in EE, doctors and police may politely ask your for bribes. In WE there’s lobbying, “consultants” and cushy nepotism. It’s the sophistication which makes the difference, you see… While Russia stupidly invades another country in blatant violation of international law, the US and EU invade to protect democracy and freedom, try at least to get the UN to rubber-stamp it and later make an effort at a botched up reconstruction, transforming the invaded countries in a living hell where children are sold for food (e.g. Afghanistan).
  - benterix 3y ago
    > the US and EU invade to protect democracy and freedom No, the EU does not invade for any reason. People in the EU want to live in peace. The USA managed to convince Blair to ally with them to invade Iraq but that's it. Both Blair and Bush should be held responsible for their crimes.

by blub 3y ago

phatfish 3y ago

Thanks for the Kremlin talking points on the Middle East. I'm sure instability in another continent is more risk to Europeans than the Russians having control over our energy AND food production -- had they taken all of Ukraine as Putin planned. Luckily the Ukrainians are willing and able fight Russia for us, with reluctant support from their allies. An utterly embarrassing situation for most European countries.

blub 3y ago
Everyone should be familiar with the US and (Western-)Europe led wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria which destabilized those countries with horrendous human costs. Two important consequences for the EU were: * the refugee crisis in Europe peaking in 2015 and still continuing today, which led to a reaction from local EU populations and a political reorientation towards the far-right. * radicalization (including the rise of ISIS/ISIL) which in turn led to terrorist attacks and an increased interest in mass surveillance within the EU. If that happens to be a Kremlin talking point, then those Kremlin guys and girls are correct. As for the Ukrainians fighting Russia “for us”, that’s definitely an EU/Washington/Kiev talking point and it’s objectively wrong: they’re fighting for their own country. Our military support and tens of billions of EUR of financial support are keeping Ukraine in the fight much longer than they would have managed by themselves. The EU rep for foreign affairs and security policy pointed out that Ukraine would fall within days without our “embarrassing” support. But if you feel we’re not doing enough, there’s always the foreign legion…
- hdjjhhvvhga 3y ago
  > Everyone should be familiar with the US and (Western-)Europe led wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria You are mixing things up. Western Europe didn't lead any of these wars. The UK joined the USA in Iraq and Afghanistan. It was a stupid decision but it had nothing to do with the rest of Europe. Unless you claim UK=EU. The Kremlin propaganda is repeating these statements very often so I can understand some people started believing these lies.

hdjjhhvvhga 3y ago

I don't know how much Middle East blood is on our hands as Europeans were totally against the war in Afghanistan and the invasion of Iraq. 36 million people protested. In Rome itself, 3 million people. No other event has managed to put that many people on the streets. And Bush haven't managed to build a great coalition for his stupid war. His famous "you forgot Poland" will be laughed at for many years. These two wars were stupid before they ever begun, and Europeans knew about this from the very beginning and they did what they could to stop them. An yet, Kremlin loves to say Russians are just doing the same things as European did. We are not the same.

blub 3y ago
Europeans failed at stopping them and no one was punished. That’s the only thing that matters, trying is not good enough. I agree we’re not the same as the Kremlin and I like to use a metaphor of Western vs Eastern EU corruption to illustrate the difference: in EE, doctors and police may politely ask your for bribes. In WE there’s lobbying, “consultants” and cushy nepotism. It’s the sophistication which makes the difference, you see… While Russia stupidly invades another country in blatant violation of international law, the US and EU invade to protect democracy and freedom, try at least to get the UN to rubber-stamp it and later make an effort at a botched up reconstruction, transforming the invaded countries in a living hell where children are sold for food (e.g. Afghanistan).
- benterix 3y ago
  > the US and EU invade to protect democracy and freedom No, the EU does not invade for any reason. People in the EU want to live in peace. The USA managed to convince Blair to ally with them to invade Iraq but that's it. Both Blair and Bush should be held responsible for their crimes.