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As can be seen, over-reliance on expensive non-Russian gas is not exactly a blessing and indicates that the “over”-reliance on cheap Russian gas was rational, b

by blub 3y ago

As can be seen, over-reliance on expensive non-Russian gas is not exactly a blessing and indicates that the “over”-reliance on cheap Russian gas was rational, but alas incompatible with US hegemony. Many EU countries depended and still depend on Russian gas, including hardcore Russia hawks. It’s cheap and easily transportable. This beats morality every time, as can be seen from the past support of various dictatorships, autocracies and the various coups enacted to secure energy for the US and Western Europe. With an important chunk of deliveries coming from Quatar, Azerbaijan, etc new suppliers are hardly better, but on the positive side at least aren’t invading anyone at the moment.

hnbad 3y ago
Oh, you can be absolutely certain that Germany only decided to support the sanctions through gritted teeth. Prior to the war Russia was a highly-regarded trading partner for a lot of companies. Many companies had employees or contractors in Russia, especially in tech. The corruption and "conservative values" (e.g. its de facto ban on homosexuality) were well-known but mostly ignored. Supporting the sections meant cutting off a limb with heavy blood loss. It's absurd to be confused why Germany hasn't managed to regain composure yet. We barely cauterized the wound.
hdjjhhvvhga 3y ago
> the “over”-reliance on cheap Russian gas was rational, but alas incompatible with US hegemony. It was incompatible with the safety of Europe first of all. Both economic and military. Yes, we had a cheap ride, but it's over. In 2014 you could still pretend but in 2023 nobody wants to have blood on their hands.
- boffinAudio 3y ago
  A stable energy market in Germany is safe for Europe. What we have now is less safe. American gas has the blood of millions of innocents on its hands too, you know ..
- blub 3y ago
  No, I think Europe and especially the US are both fine with having blood on our hands. Depends whose blood, that’s all. Also don’t mix morals and geopolitics, they’re often incompatible. Our safety in Europe is at risk because of our stupid wars destabilizing the Middle East and because we’re stuck between great power rivalries, most recently as vassals in training of the US, which wants to drag us in its conflict with China. See https://ecfr.eu/publication/the-art-of-vassalisation-how-russias-war-on-ukraine-has-transformed-transatlantic-relations/ https://ecfr.eu/publication/the-art-of-vassalisation-how-rus...
  - phatfish 3y ago
    Thanks for the Kremlin talking points on the Middle East. I'm sure instability in another continent is more risk to Europeans than the Russians having control over our energy AND food production -- had they taken all of Ukraine as Putin planned. Luckily the Ukrainians are willing and able fight Russia for us, with reluctant support from their allies. An utterly embarrassing situation for most European countries.
    - blub 3y ago
      Everyone should be familiar with the US and (Western-)Europe led wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria which destabilized those countries with horrendous human costs. Two important consequences for the EU were: * the refugee crisis in Europe peaking in 2015 and still continuing today, which led to a reaction from local EU populations and a political reorientation towards the far-right. * radicalization (including the rise of ISIS/ISIL) which in turn led to terrorist attacks and an increased interest in mass surveillance within the EU. If that happens to be a Kremlin talking point, then those Kremlin guys and girls are correct. As for the Ukrainians fighting Russia “for us”, that’s definitely an EU/Washington/Kiev talking point and it’s objectively wrong: they’re fighting for their own country. Our military support and tens of billions of EUR of financial support are keeping Ukraine in the fight much longer than they would have managed by themselves. The EU rep for foreign affairs and security policy pointed out that Ukraine would fall within days without our “embarrassing” support. But if you feel we’re not doing enough, there’s always the foreign legion…
RestlessMind 3y ago
> “over”-reliance on cheap Russian gas was rational, but alas incompatible with US hegemony. Europe seems to prefer US hegemony over Russian bullying. See how Finland and Sweden wanted to get into NATO without anyone forcing them to do so.
- blub 3y ago
  Preferring one bully to another is not the warming endorsement you think it is.
  - RestlessMind 3y ago
    Well, the speed at which Finland and Sweden rushed into NATO (aka US) arms, when their illusion of "peace forever" was shattered, is a far stronger endorsement than anything else. Unfortunately, we are humans and the only thing that organizes us beyond a certain scale (100-150 people) is force. Either you are strong enough yourself, or you need some strong backers.

by blub 3y ago

hnbad 3y ago

Oh, you can be absolutely certain that Germany only decided to support the sanctions through gritted teeth. Prior to the war Russia was a highly-regarded trading partner for a lot of companies. Many companies had employees or contractors in Russia, especially in tech. The corruption and "conservative values" (e.g. its de facto ban on homosexuality) were well-known but mostly ignored. Supporting the sections meant cutting off a limb with heavy blood loss. It's absurd to be confused why Germany hasn't managed to regain composure yet. We barely cauterized the wound.

hdjjhhvvhga 3y ago

> the “over”-reliance on cheap Russian gas was rational, but alas incompatible with US hegemony. It was incompatible with the safety of Europe first of all. Both economic and military. Yes, we had a cheap ride, but it's over. In 2014 you could still pretend but in 2023 nobody wants to have blood on their hands.

boffinAudio 3y ago
A stable energy market in Germany is safe for Europe. What we have now is less safe. American gas has the blood of millions of innocents on its hands too, you know ..
blub 3y ago
No, I think Europe and especially the US are both fine with having blood on our hands. Depends whose blood, that’s all. Also don’t mix morals and geopolitics, they’re often incompatible. Our safety in Europe is at risk because of our stupid wars destabilizing the Middle East and because we’re stuck between great power rivalries, most recently as vassals in training of the US, which wants to drag us in its conflict with China. See https://ecfr.eu/publication/the-art-of-vassalisation-how-russias-war-on-ukraine-has-transformed-transatlantic-relations/ https://ecfr.eu/publication/the-art-of-vassalisation-how-rus...
- phatfish 3y ago
  Thanks for the Kremlin talking points on the Middle East. I'm sure instability in another continent is more risk to Europeans than the Russians having control over our energy AND food production -- had they taken all of Ukraine as Putin planned. Luckily the Ukrainians are willing and able fight Russia for us, with reluctant support from their allies. An utterly embarrassing situation for most European countries.
  - blub 3y ago
    Everyone should be familiar with the US and (Western-)Europe led wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria which destabilized those countries with horrendous human costs. Two important consequences for the EU were: * the refugee crisis in Europe peaking in 2015 and still continuing today, which led to a reaction from local EU populations and a political reorientation towards the far-right. * radicalization (including the rise of ISIS/ISIL) which in turn led to terrorist attacks and an increased interest in mass surveillance within the EU. If that happens to be a Kremlin talking point, then those Kremlin guys and girls are correct. As for the Ukrainians fighting Russia “for us”, that’s definitely an EU/Washington/Kiev talking point and it’s objectively wrong: they’re fighting for their own country. Our military support and tens of billions of EUR of financial support are keeping Ukraine in the fight much longer than they would have managed by themselves. The EU rep for foreign affairs and security policy pointed out that Ukraine would fall within days without our “embarrassing” support. But if you feel we’re not doing enough, there’s always the foreign legion…

RestlessMind 3y ago

> “over”-reliance on cheap Russian gas was rational, but alas incompatible with US hegemony. Europe seems to prefer US hegemony over Russian bullying. See how Finland and Sweden wanted to get into NATO without anyone forcing them to do so.

blub 3y ago
Preferring one bully to another is not the warming endorsement you think it is.
- RestlessMind 3y ago
  Well, the speed at which Finland and Sweden rushed into NATO (aka US) arms, when their illusion of "peace forever" was shattered, is a far stronger endorsement than anything else. Unfortunately, we are humans and the only thing that organizes us beyond a certain scale (100-150 people) is force. Either you are strong enough yourself, or you need some strong backers.