3 ms·

> I started a company in Germany recently, which is like a 29 step 3 month process that costs around 1000€. To put this in perspective: You can also start a co

> I started a company in Germany recently, which is like a 29 step 3 month process that costs around 1000€. To put this in perspective: You can also start a company in Germany for 30 Euro and 15 minutes of time. That's a so called "Kleingewerbe" where you can make up to 22.000 Euro/year turnaround with _much_ easier regulations on pretty much everything. If you want to test something or have some side hustle going on, that's the way to go. Don't be scared by all the reports like the above.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>where you can make up to 22.000 Euro/year turnaround Why would you go through the (reduced) hassle to start a business on the conditions of making less than minimum wage?
- Gud 3y ago
  As a side business to try out the business case.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    How does that encourage small businesses creation? That seems backwards to me, compared to other EU member states. This "German way" seems more like it's more discouraging to start a small business, rather than encouraging it, and more convincing to just stay employed instead rather than bothering to start a small business.
    - whatisyour 3y ago
      And you can see it everywhere. People prefer being salaried to starting their own companies.
- sofixa 3y ago
  I suppose it's the same as in other EU countries, and when you outgrow the "easy and small" status, you can upgrade to a different type of company with more serious requirements.
  - ant6n 3y ago
    I find that attitude strange, like risk-averse. It sounds like a hobby, not like a startup company. Such a venture (Kleingewerbe) is effectively a sole proprietorship, meaning no separation of liability, probably no employees, no capital thus no shares and no private investing, and also very limited possibility to get public funding. It matches my perception that people in Berlin will come together to start some brick and mortar business without big growth potential and call it a "startup". Yes they did "start up" a company, but if you choose the English rather than German word that people associate with silicon-valley style tech startup to describe your venture, I think you should have a business model that aims for growth, not just a be a collection of young people to start a company. I guess it shows that in risk-averse Germany, traditionally young people become employed rather than start their own companies. So even if it's not a startup in the VC sense, the young entrepreneurs still call it that because it is risky and modern from their point of view.
    - martin_a 3y ago
      Why do you need public funding and risk, though? Business culture in Germany is very different than e.g. in the US. So called "Mittelstand" is what the German economy is build on. These are stable companies, often lead by families in the nth generation, concentrating on making good products. Most of these companies are the result of somebody (or some friends) being good at something, starting in his shed and scaling that operation up over time. Aiming for that unicorn/public funding/VC money is just plain stupid. At least it's rich people money that's usually getting burned there.
      - ant6n 3y ago
        >> Most of these companies are the result of somebody (or some friends) being good at something, starting in his shed and scaling that operation up over time. You’re using the wrong tense here. Germany used to be a bit more innovative, the „Mittelstand“ is a leftover of that. Innovation and impact require risk.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        >These are stable companies, often lead by families in the nth generation, concentrating on making good products. Most of these companies are the result of somebody (or some friends) being good at something, starting in his shed and scaling that operation up over time. ...on inherited wealth from WW2 salve labor and war profiteering[1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WX5zOdMprc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WX5zOdMprc
- martin_a 3y ago
  So called "Kleingewerbe"/"Einzelunternehmen" are not limited to the 22k turnaround. You can make millions that way, if you want to. When you outgrow the 22k though (that limit is called "Kleingewerbe"), you'll have to do advance VAT returns and stuff like that. That's what I meant with much easier regulations when you start/stay small.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Right, my bad, I misunderstood.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>where you can make up to 22.000 Euro/year turnaround Why would you go through the (reduced) hassle to start a business on the conditions of making less than minimum wage?

Gud 3y ago
As a side business to try out the business case.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  How does that encourage small businesses creation? That seems backwards to me, compared to other EU member states. This "German way" seems more like it's more discouraging to start a small business, rather than encouraging it, and more convincing to just stay employed instead rather than bothering to start a small business.
  - whatisyour 3y ago
    And you can see it everywhere. People prefer being salaried to starting their own companies.
sofixa 3y ago
I suppose it's the same as in other EU countries, and when you outgrow the "easy and small" status, you can upgrade to a different type of company with more serious requirements.
- ant6n 3y ago
  I find that attitude strange, like risk-averse. It sounds like a hobby, not like a startup company. Such a venture (Kleingewerbe) is effectively a sole proprietorship, meaning no separation of liability, probably no employees, no capital thus no shares and no private investing, and also very limited possibility to get public funding. It matches my perception that people in Berlin will come together to start some brick and mortar business without big growth potential and call it a "startup". Yes they did "start up" a company, but if you choose the English rather than German word that people associate with silicon-valley style tech startup to describe your venture, I think you should have a business model that aims for growth, not just a be a collection of young people to start a company. I guess it shows that in risk-averse Germany, traditionally young people become employed rather than start their own companies. So even if it's not a startup in the VC sense, the young entrepreneurs still call it that because it is risky and modern from their point of view.
  - martin_a 3y ago
    Why do you need public funding and risk, though? Business culture in Germany is very different than e.g. in the US. So called "Mittelstand" is what the German economy is build on. These are stable companies, often lead by families in the nth generation, concentrating on making good products. Most of these companies are the result of somebody (or some friends) being good at something, starting in his shed and scaling that operation up over time. Aiming for that unicorn/public funding/VC money is just plain stupid. At least it's rich people money that's usually getting burned there.
    - ant6n 3y ago
      >> Most of these companies are the result of somebody (or some friends) being good at something, starting in his shed and scaling that operation up over time. You’re using the wrong tense here. Germany used to be a bit more innovative, the „Mittelstand“ is a leftover of that. Innovation and impact require risk.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      >These are stable companies, often lead by families in the nth generation, concentrating on making good products. Most of these companies are the result of somebody (or some friends) being good at something, starting in his shed and scaling that operation up over time. ...on inherited wealth from WW2 salve labor and war profiteering[1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WX5zOdMprc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WX5zOdMprc
martin_a 3y ago
So called "Kleingewerbe"/"Einzelunternehmen" are not limited to the 22k turnaround. You can make millions that way, if you want to. When you outgrow the 22k though (that limit is called "Kleingewerbe"), you'll have to do advance VAT returns and stuff like that. That's what I meant with much easier regulations when you start/stay small.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Right, my bad, I misunderstood.