4 ms·

Well, there are things like universal health care and strong worker's rights in Europe, so you can't really let people think too positively about it. At least,

Well, there are things like universal health care and strong worker's rights in Europe, so you can't really let people think too positively about it. At least, that's what the cynic in me thinks.

rnd0 3y ago
You're not wrong.
localplume 3y ago
[dead]
carschno 3y ago
The scary thing is: worker's rights in Europe, notably including Germany, have been crushed in the last two to three decades. The remainders are just still relatively strong, compared to the rest of the world; including the largest economies, USA and China.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >The scary thing is: worker's rights in Europe, notably including Germany, have been crushed in the last two to three decades. Schröder's infamous Agenda 2010[1] that sought to crush unions power, workers rights and welfare programs, in order to force more Germans off welfare and taking poverty wages to pump up the economy. It pumped up the economy indeed but it didn't have the promised effect of increasing wages of living standards, quite the opposite, the rich got richer and the poor were poorer. When they ran out of poor Germans to exploit, they turned to Eastern EU workers form Poland and Romania. As those markets are drying up of cheap exploitable labor as well, they invited workers from Africa and the Middle east to make dangerous journeys to come to Germany, hence Merkel's Germany's famous open borders "Willkommenskultur", despite backlash from other Schengen and EU members who's borders and asylum centers got overwhelmed. The unpopular opinion that nobody is allowed to discuss is the country is unsustainably addicted to cheap immigrant labor for its exports to be competitive and to prop its over-inflated housing market. It's burning the economic candle at both ends to pump up the GDP. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenda_2010 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenda_2010
  - scns 3y ago
    > The unpopular opinion that nobody is allowed to discuss Why are you assuming a victim stance and wrongly so?
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      I'm not assuming the victim stance, but every time this is brought up it is always actively ignored and scoffed off as nonsense. There's a lot of arrogance in German politics pushing everyone to bury their head in the sand and tell themselves everything is fine, nothing can possibly go wrong, we're the best at everything, right before the country is caught with their pants down, unprepared for the obvious issues brewing under their noses. Remember the Wickard scandal when the Financial Times uncovered their dirt and instead of the authorities looking at Wirecard they turned at the Financial Times as if they were trying to Financially destabilize Wirecard? The same thing repeats itself on every issue in Germany, like this topic. Just look at the top comment: "Something negative about Germany in the WSJ? It can't be true, it must be WSJ trying to destabilize Germany". Everyone keeps doubting that Germany is ever doing something wrong and assumes by default that all negative news must be incorect or have an agenda.
  - MagnumOpus 3y ago
    > it didn't have the promised effect of increasing wages of living standards... they ran out of poor Germans So which one is it? According to you Agenda 2010 helped Germany to run out of poor Germans. And you are right -- from the introduction of Hartz IV, German unemployment permanently fell by over 6% -- despite the mass immigration that you are complaining about. The rich getting richer in the zero-interest-rate decade is a global phenomenon - unemployment declining by these truly immense amounts very much isn't.
imgabe 3y ago
Or, you know, those things are not a panacea that magically turn a country into a utopia and they actually still have problems too.
- tmalsburg2 3y ago
  Nobody said they were a panacea. Don't try to derail a potentially useful conversation.
  - imgabe 3y ago
    I’m not sure how useful it is to speculate about some massive media conspiracy to drum up bad news about countries with worker’s protections and universal healthcare to try and discredit those things in the US, rather than accept the Occam’s Razor explanation that those countries do in fact just have bad news sometimes.
    - tmalsburg2 3y ago
      Sorry, but that's again a straw man: No one claimed that those countries never have bad news. Those countries having bad news and the Economist exploiting it also doesn't really seem like a crazy conspiracy theory.
ffhhttt 3y ago
Also maybe because Europe has deep economic issues and growth has been slow or non-existent pretty everywhere outside of Eastern Europe over the last 10 years or so. Back in the 1990s and early 2000s productivity wise Western Europe and the US were almost on the same level. Look at the gap now.. > universal health care and strong worker's rights And generally low wages and high living costs. e.g. real estate is about 2x cheaper in the bay area or SF compared to Paris for instance adjusted by median income, while London, Munich, Rome and some other major cities are only 40-60% more expensive.
- woodpanel 3y ago
  Really puts the spotlight on Germany’s Energiewende: Even with an outlandish welfare state the German Economy kept steady throughout the last decade or two. But what really breaks the German economy‘s back is energy costs.
  - Gasp0de 3y ago
    That's only slightly related to Energiewende and more to the need for cheap russian gas.
    - woodpanel 3y ago
      No. The Energiewende put so much stress on the German energy market - which boasted the highest consumer prices per kWh in the world before the Russo-Ukranian War - it completely went bonkers after the war started. Germany’s capability to fund a massive welfare state stems from its large industrial base, which is very sensitive to energy costs. It’s those blue collar jobs the are getting completely f-cked by the policies elected largely by white-collar workers.
- _v7gu 3y ago
  Wages aren't really something you can compare directly, not having to account for hugely expensive random healthcare events, or being able to send your children to good schools without dishing out tens of thousands of dollars (or even simply not living in American cities/suburbs) count for a lot. Mobility exists, and as such I'm inclined to believe the law of one price applies to the labor markets due to the fact that neither USA or Europe is completely deserted. It's just about which tradeoffs you are willing to make. Of course, I find USA's situation a bit more unstable because remote work is getting more common. How much is the premium for having people in the same physical location anyway?

Well, there are things like universal health care and strong worker's rights in Europe, so you can't really let people think too positively about it. At least, that's what the cynic in me thinks.

rnd0 3y ago

You're not wrong.

localplume 3y ago

[dead]

carschno 3y ago

The scary thing is: worker's rights in Europe, notably including Germany, have been crushed in the last two to three decades. The remainders are just still relatively strong, compared to the rest of the world; including the largest economies, USA and China.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>The scary thing is: worker's rights in Europe, notably including Germany, have been crushed in the last two to three decades. Schröder's infamous Agenda 2010[1] that sought to crush unions power, workers rights and welfare programs, in order to force more Germans off welfare and taking poverty wages to pump up the economy. It pumped up the economy indeed but it didn't have the promised effect of increasing wages of living standards, quite the opposite, the rich got richer and the poor were poorer. When they ran out of poor Germans to exploit, they turned to Eastern EU workers form Poland and Romania. As those markets are drying up of cheap exploitable labor as well, they invited workers from Africa and the Middle east to make dangerous journeys to come to Germany, hence Merkel's Germany's famous open borders "Willkommenskultur", despite backlash from other Schengen and EU members who's borders and asylum centers got overwhelmed. The unpopular opinion that nobody is allowed to discuss is the country is unsustainably addicted to cheap immigrant labor for its exports to be competitive and to prop its over-inflated housing market. It's burning the economic candle at both ends to pump up the GDP. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenda_2010 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenda_2010
- scns 3y ago
  > The unpopular opinion that nobody is allowed to discuss Why are you assuming a victim stance and wrongly so?
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    I'm not assuming the victim stance, but every time this is brought up it is always actively ignored and scoffed off as nonsense. There's a lot of arrogance in German politics pushing everyone to bury their head in the sand and tell themselves everything is fine, nothing can possibly go wrong, we're the best at everything, right before the country is caught with their pants down, unprepared for the obvious issues brewing under their noses. Remember the Wickard scandal when the Financial Times uncovered their dirt and instead of the authorities looking at Wirecard they turned at the Financial Times as if they were trying to Financially destabilize Wirecard? The same thing repeats itself on every issue in Germany, like this topic. Just look at the top comment: "Something negative about Germany in the WSJ? It can't be true, it must be WSJ trying to destabilize Germany". Everyone keeps doubting that Germany is ever doing something wrong and assumes by default that all negative news must be incorect or have an agenda.
- MagnumOpus 3y ago
  > it didn't have the promised effect of increasing wages of living standards... they ran out of poor Germans So which one is it? According to you Agenda 2010 helped Germany to run out of poor Germans. And you are right -- from the introduction of Hartz IV, German unemployment permanently fell by over 6% -- despite the mass immigration that you are complaining about. The rich getting richer in the zero-interest-rate decade is a global phenomenon - unemployment declining by these truly immense amounts very much isn't.

imgabe 3y ago

Or, you know, those things are not a panacea that magically turn a country into a utopia and they actually still have problems too.

tmalsburg2 3y ago
Nobody said they were a panacea. Don't try to derail a potentially useful conversation.
- imgabe 3y ago
  I’m not sure how useful it is to speculate about some massive media conspiracy to drum up bad news about countries with worker’s protections and universal healthcare to try and discredit those things in the US, rather than accept the Occam’s Razor explanation that those countries do in fact just have bad news sometimes.
  - tmalsburg2 3y ago
    Sorry, but that's again a straw man: No one claimed that those countries never have bad news. Those countries having bad news and the Economist exploiting it also doesn't really seem like a crazy conspiracy theory.

ffhhttt 3y ago

Also maybe because Europe has deep economic issues and growth has been slow or non-existent pretty everywhere outside of Eastern Europe over the last 10 years or so. Back in the 1990s and early 2000s productivity wise Western Europe and the US were almost on the same level. Look at the gap now.. > universal health care and strong worker's rights And generally low wages and high living costs. e.g. real estate is about 2x cheaper in the bay area or SF compared to Paris for instance adjusted by median income, while London, Munich, Rome and some other major cities are only 40-60% more expensive.

woodpanel 3y ago
Really puts the spotlight on Germany’s Energiewende: Even with an outlandish welfare state the German Economy kept steady throughout the last decade or two. But what really breaks the German economy‘s back is energy costs.
- Gasp0de 3y ago
  That's only slightly related to Energiewende and more to the need for cheap russian gas.
  - woodpanel 3y ago
    No. The Energiewende put so much stress on the German energy market - which boasted the highest consumer prices per kWh in the world before the Russo-Ukranian War - it completely went bonkers after the war started. Germany’s capability to fund a massive welfare state stems from its large industrial base, which is very sensitive to energy costs. It’s those blue collar jobs the are getting completely f-cked by the policies elected largely by white-collar workers.
_v7gu 3y ago
Wages aren't really something you can compare directly, not having to account for hugely expensive random healthcare events, or being able to send your children to good schools without dishing out tens of thousands of dollars (or even simply not living in American cities/suburbs) count for a lot. Mobility exists, and as such I'm inclined to believe the law of one price applies to the labor markets due to the fact that neither USA or Europe is completely deserted. It's just about which tradeoffs you are willing to make. Of course, I find USA's situation a bit more unstable because remote work is getting more common. How much is the premium for having people in the same physical location anyway?