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I grew up what you’d call “lower middle class.” Your suspicions are incorrect. I’ve switched industries twice in my life to the tune of nearly a third a million

by abduhl 3y ago

I grew up what you’d call “lower middle class.” Your suspicions are incorrect. I’ve switched industries twice in my life to the tune of nearly a third a million in student loan debt. I know how difficult it is and how expensive it is, but the actual strength of some people’s personal convictions matches the strength of the convictions you pretend to have online. Just like you, the companies I worked at (and owned a portion of) changed or the industries I worked in changed, but unlike you I left (and forced them to cash out my PTO because, contrary to what you think, you do have an enforceable employment contract even if it’s in the form of a benefits package, an employee handbook, or even just “that’s what the company normally does” at that point in time) after realizing that the change was permanent rather than taking to the internet to complain while continuing to pull an easy paycheck. It’s strange that the people who tell you how difficult something is are almost always people who haven’t done it and the people who tell you how privileged you are almost always are even more so themselves. Tell me, when’s the last time you swung a hammer or pulled unemployment benefits?

feoren 3y ago
> I’ve switched industries twice in my life to the tune of nearly a third a million in student loan debt. And you're actually suggesting this as a solution to others? That they lose years of income and take on $300k in non-dischargeable debt because their employer acted like a dick, in the vain hope that with this new degree, their new employers won't? Sorry, but "just spend years and take on $300k in student loan debt like I did" is just not compelling advice. > the actual strength of some people’s personal convictions matches the strength of the convictions you pretend to have online You're significantly upping the "personal attack" game here. You could just as easily say that I am the one with strong convictions, continuing to work at a company that treats its employees like shit because I actually do believe in the work that I'm doing there. > It’s strange that the people who tell you how difficult something is are almost always people who haven’t done it It's strange to you that the people who claim something is difficult are the ones who haven't been able to do it? > Tell me, when’s the last time you swung a hammer or pulled unemployment benefits? Not interested in a hard-knocks pissing contest. I assumed you wouldn't spend $300k in a game of Musical Diplomas in the hope of avoiding being treated the way most people in the U.S. are treated by most companies unless you had a significant safety net. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by saying: no, you added it onto an already difficult life. My point is that this is not good advice.
- abduhl 3y ago
  Let’s go through the comment thread here again: 1. Someone asked what protections an employee could expect to receive from an employment contract in a right to work state. 2. I responded that right to work is not related to employment contracts but to unions and listed a number of protections and benefits regularly covered by employment contracts. 3. You came in saying that, anecdotally, the benefits are either non-existent in your industry or only available to top executives and ending with a sort of anti-“corporate overlord” conspiracy about how every term in an employment contract is a negative to an employee because the employer writes the contract. 4. I told you that contracts are bilateral and therefore you should negotiate, start your own business, or quit. 5. You responded with the first actual personal attack by stating that even suggesting that someone negotiate, start a business, or quit meant that I came from a life of luxury and privilege and how my supposed privilege blinds me to the cost of quitting an industry before again going on an rant based on your specific situation (that you refuse to leave) and generalizing your refusal to negotiate, start your own business, or leave to “nobody” negotiating, starting their own company, or leaving. 6. I responded to your personal attack by noting that I don’t come from privilege, that I have changed industries, that it is possible to finance it via student loans, and that I have been in similar situations as you and taken a different path. I noted that some people’s actions match their espoused beliefs while noting that you don’t appear to be one of those peoples. I then made a snarky comment about how you seem to be the type to deem something hard before even trying it and to cry privilege while you stay at your cushy white collar job. 7. You responded shifting your argument from “nobody” does this to “nobody smart” (obviously, because you’re smart and you haven’t done it) does this (a strange argument on a website like HN given its relationship with startups…) and crying about personal attacks. Oh, and apparently you really love your job after all despite all the prior ranting about how much you hate your job. And apparently you don’t want to get into a who-has-privilege argument with me after all now that you know my background sort of undercuts your entire argument.
  - feoren 3y ago
    I will concede that "I suspect you have lived a very privileged life" was overly focused on you, and should have been something like "Nobody should seriously consider these options unless they are living a very privileged life". Your actual personal history is not relevant my argument at all and I shouldn't have brought it up. I maintain that most employees have basically zero leverage to negotiate their worker-hostile contracts, and that it is not a good idea to saddle yourself with $300k of non-dischargeable student loan debt in order to try to avoid a practice that is pervasive in the U.S. > anti-“corporate overlord” conspiracy It's not exactly done in secret. Would you call a feudal serf a conspiracy theorist if he was ranting about how the Dukes and Kings hold all the power? I'm lucky that I have more leverage than an Amazon warehouse employee but it's awfully hard to compare their working conditions to Jeff Bezos's situation and not call him a "corporate overlord". > Oh, and apparently you really love your job after all despite all the prior ranting about how much you hate your job. This is just getting boring. Yes, I both love and hate my job. So?

by abduhl 3y ago

feoren 3y ago

> I’ve switched industries twice in my life to the tune of nearly a third a million in student loan debt. And you're actually suggesting this as a solution to others? That they lose years of income and take on $300k in non-dischargeable debt because their employer acted like a dick, in the vain hope that with this new degree, their new employers won't? Sorry, but "just spend years and take on $300k in student loan debt like I did" is just not compelling advice. > the actual strength of some people’s personal convictions matches the strength of the convictions you pretend to have online You're significantly upping the "personal attack" game here. You could just as easily say that I am the one with strong convictions, continuing to work at a company that treats its employees like shit because I actually do believe in the work that I'm doing there. > It’s strange that the people who tell you how difficult something is are almost always people who haven’t done it It's strange to you that the people who claim something is difficult are the ones who haven't been able to do it? > Tell me, when’s the last time you swung a hammer or pulled unemployment benefits? Not interested in a hard-knocks pissing contest. I assumed you wouldn't spend $300k in a game of Musical Diplomas in the hope of avoiding being treated the way most people in the U.S. are treated by most companies unless you had a significant safety net. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by saying: no, you added it onto an already difficult life. My point is that this is not good advice.

abduhl 3y ago
Let’s go through the comment thread here again: 1. Someone asked what protections an employee could expect to receive from an employment contract in a right to work state. 2. I responded that right to work is not related to employment contracts but to unions and listed a number of protections and benefits regularly covered by employment contracts. 3. You came in saying that, anecdotally, the benefits are either non-existent in your industry or only available to top executives and ending with a sort of anti-“corporate overlord” conspiracy about how every term in an employment contract is a negative to an employee because the employer writes the contract. 4. I told you that contracts are bilateral and therefore you should negotiate, start your own business, or quit. 5. You responded with the first actual personal attack by stating that even suggesting that someone negotiate, start a business, or quit meant that I came from a life of luxury and privilege and how my supposed privilege blinds me to the cost of quitting an industry before again going on an rant based on your specific situation (that you refuse to leave) and generalizing your refusal to negotiate, start your own business, or leave to “nobody” negotiating, starting their own company, or leaving. 6. I responded to your personal attack by noting that I don’t come from privilege, that I have changed industries, that it is possible to finance it via student loans, and that I have been in similar situations as you and taken a different path. I noted that some people’s actions match their espoused beliefs while noting that you don’t appear to be one of those peoples. I then made a snarky comment about how you seem to be the type to deem something hard before even trying it and to cry privilege while you stay at your cushy white collar job. 7. You responded shifting your argument from “nobody” does this to “nobody smart” (obviously, because you’re smart and you haven’t done it) does this (a strange argument on a website like HN given its relationship with startups…) and crying about personal attacks. Oh, and apparently you really love your job after all despite all the prior ranting about how much you hate your job. And apparently you don’t want to get into a who-has-privilege argument with me after all now that you know my background sort of undercuts your entire argument.
- feoren 3y ago
  I will concede that "I suspect you have lived a very privileged life" was overly focused on you, and should have been something like "Nobody should seriously consider these options unless they are living a very privileged life". Your actual personal history is not relevant my argument at all and I shouldn't have brought it up. I maintain that most employees have basically zero leverage to negotiate their worker-hostile contracts, and that it is not a good idea to saddle yourself with $300k of non-dischargeable student loan debt in order to try to avoid a practice that is pervasive in the U.S. > anti-“corporate overlord” conspiracy It's not exactly done in secret. Would you call a feudal serf a conspiracy theorist if he was ranting about how the Dukes and Kings hold all the power? I'm lucky that I have more leverage than an Amazon warehouse employee but it's awfully hard to compare their working conditions to Jeff Bezos's situation and not call him a "corporate overlord". > Oh, and apparently you really love your job after all despite all the prior ranting about how much you hate your job. This is just getting boring. Yes, I both love and hate my job. So?