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If I were to make a normal desktop app with a UI, I'd consider Qt before the rest of the toolkits (at least, until Iced finally catches up). Even on an OSX-only

If I were to make a normal desktop app with a UI, I'd consider Qt before the rest of the toolkits (at least, until Iced finally catches up). Even on an OSX-only app, I'm sure as hell not using SwiftUI/UIKit/etc. Qt more consistently nails native apps, the so-called-native UI toolkit on any given OS doesn't. You seem to think "codesign" is the trivial step: it is not. Many many times that entire step has made it to the top of the front page on HN, on how many dev teams simply cannot get this to work right consistently, and will break in ways that cannot be debugged using the tool output or the documentation. Nobody has this level of problem on Windows: I just sign it using a valid cert, and its done. I don't need to buy a Microsoft-made computer or need to run Visual Studio or pay Microsoft $100 a year and then still have random reports of Windows users being unable to run my binary; however, HN has popularized countless stories of devs being forced to buy a Mac (which means no OSX in a VM, no OSX build farms, very spotty CI<->OSX integration), having to pay Apple $100 a year to notarize the signing (which they can also refuse to do, without recourse), having to use XCode (at least for the signing step), and they still have situations where the binary is not being signed and/or notarized, or OSX will randomly fail to run the binary, or it actively prevents users from running the binary without telling anyone why, but giving scary messages to non-tech users anyways. I'm sorry, but how the hell is a trillion dollar company getting this wrong? Apple has broken priorities, and shilling/fanboying for them on here is not going to fix the problem.

olliej 3y ago
If I were to make a normal desktop app for Mac I'd use AppKit. IMO, a lot of the UI things apple has introduced in the last few years have been attempting to get the people making apps for iOS to also make them for macOS in a way that isn't just an iOS app running on a larger screen. I guess the alternative is that everyone continues making these horrific apps built on top of chrome wrappers like electron, bring Sun's vision of everyone shipping a single crappy app to every platform. > I'm sorry, but how the hell is a trillion dollar company getting this wrong? Apple has broken priorities, and shilling/fanboying for them on here is not going to fix the problem. I'm sure you have a solution then? One that doesn't require the alternative of "every app must be from a central store that reviews and approves every app"? > shilling/fanboying for them on here is not going to fix the problem. Name calling and personal attacks doesn't help anyone, and it certainly doesn't inspire me to think you're willing to argue in good faith.
- DiabloD3 3y ago
  Let me not mince words: People who are pro-Apple on HN have a long established history of not arguing in good faith. They belong to a cult, and viciously attack anyone who isn't part of the tribe; often attacking them for the same "crimes" that Apple itself is better known for. Also, yes, I have a solution, the same solution everyone eventually follows: they switch back to Windows, they get angry at Microsoft for whatever reason (Microsoft comes up with a good one every 7-8 years), and then they switch permanently to Linux. I used Linux as my primary, and only, desktop OS from when Windows 95 started shipping on PCs in 1996 to about 2015, where I allowed Windows back into my life. My laptop is a MBPR that very quickly proved that OSX is not, and never will be, prod ready (to my credit, I made it a year and a half before I gave up); it then got swapped to Windows, and ran that way for a few years until it now runs Linux. From my vantage point, Linux adoption on the desktop is an Eternal September, and I'm fine with it. Everyone makes it here sooner or later if they're serious about computers and/or software development. The solution to fixing Apple, however, is doing what Microsoft did: quiet fired/force retired Balmer, promoted a strong candidate from within, and let him right the ship; Apple needs to replace Tim Cook with whoever their equivalent of Satya Nadella is.
jwells89 3y ago
> Even on an OSX-only app, I'm sure as hell not using SwiftUI/UIKit/etc. Qt more consistently nails native apps, the so-called-native UI toolkit on any given OS doesn't. In my experience this varies a lot between projects and developers. Some Qt apps are great (Krita comes to mind) but just as many are quite janky. Of course AppKit/UIKit have their fair share of bad apps too, but generally if developers have gone as far to commit to building their app with either (especially AppKit, which is the less accessible of the two) they take extra care to produce a good product. Qt being for most intents and purposes usable only with C++ and Python likely impacts this, though. A lot of devs aren't particularly keen on either language, especially with the extra headaches that come with shipping a user-facing multiplatform Python app that reliably runs everywhere.
Klonoar 3y ago
You do not need Xcode for signing or notarizing, period. I’ve set this up for open source projects that sign and notarize via CI and it literally doesn’t break. The flow is like reading reviews of an apartment complex - complaints will rise to the top but it’s not like people are going to write glowing reviews otherwise. ;P Furthermore QT on macOS literally links to and renders the same controls as AppKit under the hood, so while you can definitely use it if you want (e.g for cross platform benefits) your claim that it “nails” platform specific UI is just incorrect. They are fundamentally the same thing in this case. You appear to have this irrational idea(and hatred…?) about how macOS/iOS developers work but don’t appear to truly understand what you’re talking about.

olliej 3y ago

If I were to make a normal desktop app for Mac I'd use AppKit. IMO, a lot of the UI things apple has introduced in the last few years have been attempting to get the people making apps for iOS to also make them for macOS in a way that isn't just an iOS app running on a larger screen. I guess the alternative is that everyone continues making these horrific apps built on top of chrome wrappers like electron, bring Sun's vision of everyone shipping a single crappy app to every platform. > I'm sorry, but how the hell is a trillion dollar company getting this wrong? Apple has broken priorities, and shilling/fanboying for them on here is not going to fix the problem. I'm sure you have a solution then? One that doesn't require the alternative of "every app must be from a central store that reviews and approves every app"? > shilling/fanboying for them on here is not going to fix the problem. Name calling and personal attacks doesn't help anyone, and it certainly doesn't inspire me to think you're willing to argue in good faith.

DiabloD3 3y ago
Let me not mince words: People who are pro-Apple on HN have a long established history of not arguing in good faith. They belong to a cult, and viciously attack anyone who isn't part of the tribe; often attacking them for the same "crimes" that Apple itself is better known for. Also, yes, I have a solution, the same solution everyone eventually follows: they switch back to Windows, they get angry at Microsoft for whatever reason (Microsoft comes up with a good one every 7-8 years), and then they switch permanently to Linux. I used Linux as my primary, and only, desktop OS from when Windows 95 started shipping on PCs in 1996 to about 2015, where I allowed Windows back into my life. My laptop is a MBPR that very quickly proved that OSX is not, and never will be, prod ready (to my credit, I made it a year and a half before I gave up); it then got swapped to Windows, and ran that way for a few years until it now runs Linux. From my vantage point, Linux adoption on the desktop is an Eternal September, and I'm fine with it. Everyone makes it here sooner or later if they're serious about computers and/or software development. The solution to fixing Apple, however, is doing what Microsoft did: quiet fired/force retired Balmer, promoted a strong candidate from within, and let him right the ship; Apple needs to replace Tim Cook with whoever their equivalent of Satya Nadella is.

jwells89 3y ago

> Even on an OSX-only app, I'm sure as hell not using SwiftUI/UIKit/etc. Qt more consistently nails native apps, the so-called-native UI toolkit on any given OS doesn't. In my experience this varies a lot between projects and developers. Some Qt apps are great (Krita comes to mind) but just as many are quite janky. Of course AppKit/UIKit have their fair share of bad apps too, but generally if developers have gone as far to commit to building their app with either (especially AppKit, which is the less accessible of the two) they take extra care to produce a good product. Qt being for most intents and purposes usable only with C++ and Python likely impacts this, though. A lot of devs aren't particularly keen on either language, especially with the extra headaches that come with shipping a user-facing multiplatform Python app that reliably runs everywhere.

Klonoar 3y ago

You do not need Xcode for signing or notarizing, period. I’ve set this up for open source projects that sign and notarize via CI and it literally doesn’t break. The flow is like reading reviews of an apartment complex - complaints will rise to the top but it’s not like people are going to write glowing reviews otherwise. ;P Furthermore QT on macOS literally links to and renders the same controls as AppKit under the hood, so while you can definitely use it if you want (e.g for cross platform benefits) your claim that it “nails” platform specific UI is just incorrect. They are fundamentally the same thing in this case. You appear to have this irrational idea(and hatred…?) about how macOS/iOS developers work but don’t appear to truly understand what you’re talking about.