5 ms·

False canopies on fighters work, one almost killed me

140 points by clouddrover 3y ago

nocoiner 3y ago
I play some DCS and am incredibly bad at it. And I harbor no illusions that it is in any material way an accurate depiction of aerial combat or the rigors thereof. But one thing I think it completely accurately conveys is at least a small measure of the complexity and difficulty of flying and surviving in high performance fighter jets. The number of times I’ve made some small error and turned into a smoking hole in the ground - well, it happens most of the times I play. But these folks go up and are lucky if they get to walk away from a single mistake. Much respect.
- ambicapter 3y ago
  Hence the multiple meme videos on youtube titled "DCS is a horror game" which are great fun when you're not on the receiving end.
  - nocoiner 3y ago
    LOL, I actually didn’t know that meme, but that’s perfect. The closest I’ve ever been to experiencing my own death was trying to figure out how terrain following radar worked on one of the DCS planes. I was bopping along in IMC and had maybe a fifth of a second to comprehend the side of the mountain I was shortly to fly into. My brain started to formulate “oh sh-“ but didn’t even get to the full point of conscious realization before it was lights out. When it’s my time to go, I can only hope it’s that quick.
    - j5155 3y ago
      I live in Alaska, and this is why flying at night/IMC is strongly not recommended. Local CAP squadron just did a search and rescue this morning for someone who this happened to.
- smfjaw 3y ago
  I play a bit of it too, enough that I know what a flying scissor is and what a one and two circle turn is but not enough that I get killed by random aim 120 that I had no idea was sailing towards me if I go online. This would definitely throw a pilot who only got a glance at the 'canopy' and may make them alter their tactics into something bad.
- xwdv 3y ago
  This first time I played DCS in VR and crashed and blew up it made me feel queasy. The ground came hard and fast, for a moment my brain thought this was the end though my mind still knew better. I had to pause for reflection after that.
- fnikacevic 3y ago
  DCS = Digital Combat Simulator to save other's Googling
renewiltord 3y ago
This shit is wild. That stuff is insanely confusing even at the closer view. It's crazy that you have to make these split second decisions at 7 g with life on the line. When I was a child, I'd always wonder how pilots die in training. I think I didn't really appreciate that with these kinds of things everything has to be in the realm of unconscious competence. Almost everything has to be freed into autonomous functioning so you can make the few tactical decisions your brain can manage. And you need to train yourself at that limit to really be ready for it in the real moment. Great story.
- sillywalk 3y ago
  Back in 2003 I was a kid (21) posted to Cold Lake, and during the Maple Flag exercise there was a crash, a pilot was killed. A bunch of us were tasked with getting all the random kit - tents/cots/jerry cans/etc. together for a retrieval / investigation, it was just .. dunno. Then seeing the 'missing man formation'. It's all like fiction until it isn't.
kyleee 3y ago
“I would fly as the wingman to my instructor, Mike Hoch”? Great story, but this line gave me pause
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- progman32 3y ago
  Expand?
  - mig39 3y ago
    He's a legendary Canadian pilot. Known as "hokey" because he pronounces his last name like "Hawk." Now read the name again.
  - wyldfire 3y ago
    If you re-syllabize the words and pronounce the last one like it rhymes with "tock" then it's obscene. "Mike Hoch" -> "My Cock"
    - progman32 3y ago
      I see, thanks. If that's the case I wish they'd just say they're not willing to give out their name, but so it goes.
      - wlonkly 3y ago
        Mike Hoch is, in fact real[1], but that kind of word game is common. Heywood Jablome, Hugh Jass, Amanda Huggenkiss... There was a running gag on The Simpsons where Bart would prank call Moe's Tavern with names like these.[2] [1] https://www.thoroldtoday.ca/columns/column-niagaras-own-top-gun-weighs-in-on-hollywood-versions-6490279 https://www.thoroldtoday.ca/columns/column-niagaras-own-top-... [2] https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/Bart%27s_prank_calls https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/Bart%27s_prank_calls
sio8ohPi 3y ago
> The main tactic was to draw the bandit into a ‘single-circle’ fight, meaning that one aircraft was chasing the other around the circle. I'm curious about the use of 'single-circle' here. The way it's described makes it sounds like a nose-to-tail engagement ("one aircraft chasing the other around the circle"), which is usually called "two-circle" online (although I've always found that terminology confusing). Does single-circle have different meaning to Canadian pilots, or am I misunderstanding what's described?
- lmm 3y ago
  I think you're misunderstanding what you read elsewhere? Single-circle lines up with what I've seen elsewhere (e.g. https://i.imgur.com/a4YEBc1.png https://i.imgur.com/a4YEBc1.png ) and the plain meaning of the words.
  - sio8ohPi 3y ago
    I've usually seen both presented at the merge, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers#/media/File:Circle_flow_in_air_combat.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers#/media...
- DanHulton 3y ago
  I mean, it made sense to me? One circle, multiple points (planes) on it.
paulmd 3y ago
This effect is extremely apparent in r/c aircraft especially at long range or high-speed passes. Without some other contextual clues (perceived motion against clouds, etc) it's extremely difficult to determine whether the plane is rolled 180 degrees and how it's moving. And especially as it turns through the degrees of shadow etc it's very easy to have the plane appear visually different from what you expect. I've definitely flown some sailplanes etc (up high!) or played around with long-duration gliding on my old electric flying wings. And the farther out you go the easier it is to lose perspective. Losing perspective down at ground level (eg you got way too far out for a landing attempt) is usually game over. The other one is it's very difficult to pick off in snap-vision situations. You rolled the plane and lost it (my wing would do 3-4 a second) and have a snap second to pick up the reorientation etc and yoink upwards. And that's probably similar in principle to fast-pass snap recognition workloads for fighters. I had some fairly fast electric wings for the day, they'd hit 50-70 mph with some of the early neodymium brushless motors from Mega (the 16/15/4 and 16/15/3) and high-discharge 50A NiMH packs. Those things cooked, I added extra spars to help avoid harmonic flapping from overspeed etc. I liked to do soaring (one of the wings was originally an unpowered cliff soaring design) so I definitely dressed my wings up in high-vis designs (contrasting top/bottom with reflective in some parts, distinctive pattern on each). That largely solved the problem especially as I gained experience etc. Just ask the enemy nicely to do that, I guess. ;) (but honestly that might be a good way to train, use a rc model at extreme distance with a reflective pattern and have the instructor spin it and the student has to reorient themselves and recover it (or push a flight stick in the direction you'd respond for that orientation). Practice an extreme form of learning to ignore silhouettes and orient from the other cues, and then slow it down to what planes can actually do without the visual aid?) But yes that orientation illusion is really disconcerting and easy to fall into. Is it right side up, or turned and now it's upside down, etc. If you can't visually track features accurately you lose one of the degrees of freedom in the model. And you can often brute-force it with concentration and will... but if you lose it, the movement is gonna confuse the hell out of you for a couple seconds until your mental model reorients. Literally a visual gimbal lock.
- dralley 3y ago
  I have no idea how people manage to fly something like this [0] without crashing in the first 10 seconds. It gets so small, so quickly... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPGDAZyQ44k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPGDAZyQ44k
hoseja 3y ago
Not sure how that would affect anything (besides confusing your close-flying allies, as here) beyond visual range where majority of modern aerial combat ought to take place.
- sillywalk 3y ago
  "where majority of modern aerial combat ought to take place." -- has there been a major engagement with aircraft firing missiles beyond visual range? A quick check of wikipedia says not really.
  - hoseja 3y ago
    There hasn't been a major engagement, period.
  - greedo 3y ago
    This is the predominant tactic used by Russian fighters near Ukraine. They don't want to get targeted by SAMs, so they do long range missile shots against Ukrainian aircraft.
yread 3y ago
Relevant with the recent training exercise with L39s killing 3 pilots in Ukraine
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  <https://neuters.de/world/europe/three-ukrainian-military-pilots-die-mid-air-collision-2023-08-26/ https://neuters.de/world/europe/three-ukrainian-military-pil...>

140 points by clouddrover 3y ago

I play some DCS and am incredibly bad at it. And I harbor no illusions that it is in any material way an accurate depiction of aerial combat or the rigors thereof. But one thing I think it completely accurately conveys is at least a small measure of the complexity and difficulty of flying and surviving in high performance fighter jets. The number of times I’ve made some small error and turned into a smoking hole in the ground - well, it happens most of the times I play. But these folks go up and are lucky if they get to walk away from a single mistake. Much respect.

ambicapter 3y ago
Hence the multiple meme videos on youtube titled "DCS is a horror game" which are great fun when you're not on the receiving end.
- nocoiner 3y ago
  LOL, I actually didn’t know that meme, but that’s perfect. The closest I’ve ever been to experiencing my own death was trying to figure out how terrain following radar worked on one of the DCS planes. I was bopping along in IMC and had maybe a fifth of a second to comprehend the side of the mountain I was shortly to fly into. My brain started to formulate “oh sh-“ but didn’t even get to the full point of conscious realization before it was lights out. When it’s my time to go, I can only hope it’s that quick.
  - j5155 3y ago
    I live in Alaska, and this is why flying at night/IMC is strongly not recommended. Local CAP squadron just did a search and rescue this morning for someone who this happened to.
smfjaw 3y ago
I play a bit of it too, enough that I know what a flying scissor is and what a one and two circle turn is but not enough that I get killed by random aim 120 that I had no idea was sailing towards me if I go online. This would definitely throw a pilot who only got a glance at the 'canopy' and may make them alter their tactics into something bad.
xwdv 3y ago
This first time I played DCS in VR and crashed and blew up it made me feel queasy. The ground came hard and fast, for a moment my brain thought this was the end though my mind still knew better. I had to pause for reflection after that.
fnikacevic 3y ago
DCS = Digital Combat Simulator to save other's Googling

renewiltord 3y ago

This shit is wild. That stuff is insanely confusing even at the closer view. It's crazy that you have to make these split second decisions at 7 g with life on the line. When I was a child, I'd always wonder how pilots die in training. I think I didn't really appreciate that with these kinds of things everything has to be in the realm of unconscious competence. Almost everything has to be freed into autonomous functioning so you can make the few tactical decisions your brain can manage. And you need to train yourself at that limit to really be ready for it in the real moment. Great story.

sillywalk 3y ago
Back in 2003 I was a kid (21) posted to Cold Lake, and during the Maple Flag exercise there was a crash, a pilot was killed. A bunch of us were tasked with getting all the random kit - tents/cots/jerry cans/etc. together for a retrieval / investigation, it was just .. dunno. Then seeing the 'missing man formation'. It's all like fiction until it isn't.

kyleee 3y ago

“I would fly as the wingman to my instructor, Mike Hoch”? Great story, but this line gave me pause

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
progman32 3y ago
Expand?
- mig39 3y ago
  He's a legendary Canadian pilot. Known as "hokey" because he pronounces his last name like "Hawk." Now read the name again.
- wyldfire 3y ago
  If you re-syllabize the words and pronounce the last one like it rhymes with "tock" then it's obscene. "Mike Hoch" -> "My Cock"
  - progman32 3y ago
    I see, thanks. If that's the case I wish they'd just say they're not willing to give out their name, but so it goes.
    - wlonkly 3y ago
      Mike Hoch is, in fact real[1], but that kind of word game is common. Heywood Jablome, Hugh Jass, Amanda Huggenkiss... There was a running gag on The Simpsons where Bart would prank call Moe's Tavern with names like these.[2] [1] https://www.thoroldtoday.ca/columns/column-niagaras-own-top-gun-weighs-in-on-hollywood-versions-6490279 https://www.thoroldtoday.ca/columns/column-niagaras-own-top-... [2] https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/Bart%27s_prank_calls https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/Bart%27s_prank_calls

sio8ohPi 3y ago

> The main tactic was to draw the bandit into a ‘single-circle’ fight, meaning that one aircraft was chasing the other around the circle. I'm curious about the use of 'single-circle' here. The way it's described makes it sounds like a nose-to-tail engagement ("one aircraft chasing the other around the circle"), which is usually called "two-circle" online (although I've always found that terminology confusing). Does single-circle have different meaning to Canadian pilots, or am I misunderstanding what's described?

lmm 3y ago
I think you're misunderstanding what you read elsewhere? Single-circle lines up with what I've seen elsewhere (e.g. https://i.imgur.com/a4YEBc1.png https://i.imgur.com/a4YEBc1.png ) and the plain meaning of the words.
- sio8ohPi 3y ago
  I've usually seen both presented at the merge, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers#/media/File:Circle_flow_in_air_combat.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers#/media...
DanHulton 3y ago
I mean, it made sense to me? One circle, multiple points (planes) on it.

paulmd 3y ago

This effect is extremely apparent in r/c aircraft especially at long range or high-speed passes. Without some other contextual clues (perceived motion against clouds, etc) it's extremely difficult to determine whether the plane is rolled 180 degrees and how it's moving. And especially as it turns through the degrees of shadow etc it's very easy to have the plane appear visually different from what you expect. I've definitely flown some sailplanes etc (up high!) or played around with long-duration gliding on my old electric flying wings. And the farther out you go the easier it is to lose perspective. Losing perspective down at ground level (eg you got way too far out for a landing attempt) is usually game over. The other one is it's very difficult to pick off in snap-vision situations. You rolled the plane and lost it (my wing would do 3-4 a second) and have a snap second to pick up the reorientation etc and yoink upwards. And that's probably similar in principle to fast-pass snap recognition workloads for fighters. I had some fairly fast electric wings for the day, they'd hit 50-70 mph with some of the early neodymium brushless motors from Mega (the 16/15/4 and 16/15/3) and high-discharge 50A NiMH packs. Those things cooked, I added extra spars to help avoid harmonic flapping from overspeed etc. I liked to do soaring (one of the wings was originally an unpowered cliff soaring design) so I definitely dressed my wings up in high-vis designs (contrasting top/bottom with reflective in some parts, distinctive pattern on each). That largely solved the problem especially as I gained experience etc. Just ask the enemy nicely to do that, I guess. ;) (but honestly that might be a good way to train, use a rc model at extreme distance with a reflective pattern and have the instructor spin it and the student has to reorient themselves and recover it (or push a flight stick in the direction you'd respond for that orientation). Practice an extreme form of learning to ignore silhouettes and orient from the other cues, and then slow it down to what planes can actually do without the visual aid?) But yes that orientation illusion is really disconcerting and easy to fall into. Is it right side up, or turned and now it's upside down, etc. If you can't visually track features accurately you lose one of the degrees of freedom in the model. And you can often brute-force it with concentration and will... but if you lose it, the movement is gonna confuse the hell out of you for a couple seconds until your mental model reorients. Literally a visual gimbal lock.

dralley 3y ago
I have no idea how people manage to fly something like this [0] without crashing in the first 10 seconds. It gets so small, so quickly... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPGDAZyQ44k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPGDAZyQ44k

hoseja 3y ago

Not sure how that would affect anything (besides confusing your close-flying allies, as here) beyond visual range where majority of modern aerial combat ought to take place.

sillywalk 3y ago
"where majority of modern aerial combat ought to take place." -- has there been a major engagement with aircraft firing missiles beyond visual range? A quick check of wikipedia says not really.
- hoseja 3y ago
  There hasn't been a major engagement, period.
- greedo 3y ago
  This is the predominant tactic used by Russian fighters near Ukraine. They don't want to get targeted by SAMs, so they do long range missile shots against Ukrainian aircraft.

yread 3y ago

Relevant with the recent training exercise with L39s killing 3 pilots in Ukraine

dredmorbius 3y ago
<https://neuters.de/world/europe/three-ukrainian-military-pilots-die-mid-air-collision-2023-08-26/ https://neuters.de/world/europe/three-ukrainian-military-pil...>