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What is "reasonable," what is "fair." These words signify a death spiral in wage discussions. The reality is that businesses cannot increase prices forever and

What is "reasonable," what is "fair." These words signify a death spiral in wage discussions. The reality is that businesses cannot increase prices forever and have a market that still wants to pay them. If I sell burgers for $10k and they're shit burgers then I'd make no money and have to shut it all down. Just like my friend who shut down his cabinetry business because he was paying his employees more than himself (doing the "right thing"). He is a one man shop working out of his van and is doing much better, but his employees' wages became 0.

kikokikokiko 3y ago
Some years ago a burger joint opened in my neighborhood, a very hispsterish kind of place. I went once, and saw a message attached to the menu, saying that 50% of the revenue obtained from every burger would be donated to some cause du jour, probably climate change related, bla bla bla. To me it signified that the burgers they sold were at least 100% overpriced when compared to what they should cost if they were trying to have a profitable business. Fun fact: they were, and their burger joint went under in a couple of months. Capitalism wins in the end, it doesn't matter if you want to fight it, the sun always rises again.
fn-mote 3y ago
The restaurant has been in business 10 years. I think that evidence makes me dismiss your comment as pessimistic hyperbole. If the wages really didn't work, the restaurant would have been long gone. I acknowledge that you have seen something similar not work out, first hand, but in this case it is apparently different.
no_butterscotch 3y ago
> What is "reasonable," what is "fair." These words signify a death spiral in wage discussions. Another commenter commented on a burger-joint giving a share to "climate" causes. What a share entails in this case, whether it comes from profit, or whether they pass the cost of this cause to the customer is unknown. Additionally I live in a place where there are reparations discussions and where unions agreed that teachers of a certain ethnicity would be eliminated first in the name of equity if it came down to staff cuts. How does this play into the scenario if these types of events happen more often, even discussing these things is difficult and people could veer away from. I heard that Amazon inserted "woke" discussions into union talks in Georgia in an effort to de-rail them, not to engender unity.
ROTMetro 3y ago
What you are referring to is a zombie business. It does not offer enough value so it can only survive via low wages, something that is not guaranteed and is externally controlled. I think banks should does including this measure when it comes to financing. If have to pay your people below market wages to survive you don't have a business, you have a zombie that can't only survive as a parasite on others. Figure out how to manage the business or increase your value add or be explicate this is a passion project not a viable business. I cannot buy produce from a farmer for less than it costs them to grow it, but somehow businesses think they can pay people less than it costs to live.
- delfinom 3y ago
  It's fine, most banks don't directly finance small businesses lmao. They make you take out personal loans instead.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- randomdata 3y ago
  > If have to pay your people below market wages to survive you don't have a business How does one pay below market wages? Someone's market wage is established by observing what they are being paid. They will always be equal, unless you mean an employer is illegally withholding funds owed to the worker? > I cannot buy produce from a farmer for less than it costs them to grow it Haha. As a farmer, I have lost money selling my produce more times than I wish to count. The customer couldn't care less about how much it costs you to produce a product. They are only going to pay what it is worth to them and not a penny more. The secret to a sustainable farm business is understanding how to weather those times when it costs more to grow the food than what the customer will pay.
  - TylerE 3y ago
    Well, probably the most traditional way is to hire for approx market rate... and then given little or no raises/cost of living adjutsments. Bam, 5 years from now, you're well under market rate.
BeetleB 3y ago
> Just like my friend who shut down his cabinetry business because he was paying his employees more than himself (doing the "right thing"). I've listened to almost all the How I Built This episodes, and paying your employees more than you are paying yourself is fairly common. You need to pay everyone market rates to retain them, and there often isn't enough left over to pay yourself well (if at all).

kikokikokiko 3y ago

Some years ago a burger joint opened in my neighborhood, a very hispsterish kind of place. I went once, and saw a message attached to the menu, saying that 50% of the revenue obtained from every burger would be donated to some cause du jour, probably climate change related, bla bla bla. To me it signified that the burgers they sold were at least 100% overpriced when compared to what they should cost if they were trying to have a profitable business. Fun fact: they were, and their burger joint went under in a couple of months. Capitalism wins in the end, it doesn't matter if you want to fight it, the sun always rises again.

fn-mote 3y ago

The restaurant has been in business 10 years. I think that evidence makes me dismiss your comment as pessimistic hyperbole. If the wages really didn't work, the restaurant would have been long gone. I acknowledge that you have seen something similar not work out, first hand, but in this case it is apparently different.

no_butterscotch 3y ago

> What is "reasonable," what is "fair." These words signify a death spiral in wage discussions. Another commenter commented on a burger-joint giving a share to "climate" causes. What a share entails in this case, whether it comes from profit, or whether they pass the cost of this cause to the customer is unknown. Additionally I live in a place where there are reparations discussions and where unions agreed that teachers of a certain ethnicity would be eliminated first in the name of equity if it came down to staff cuts. How does this play into the scenario if these types of events happen more often, even discussing these things is difficult and people could veer away from. I heard that Amazon inserted "woke" discussions into union talks in Georgia in an effort to de-rail them, not to engender unity.

ROTMetro 3y ago

What you are referring to is a zombie business. It does not offer enough value so it can only survive via low wages, something that is not guaranteed and is externally controlled. I think banks should does including this measure when it comes to financing. If have to pay your people below market wages to survive you don't have a business, you have a zombie that can't only survive as a parasite on others. Figure out how to manage the business or increase your value add or be explicate this is a passion project not a viable business. I cannot buy produce from a farmer for less than it costs them to grow it, but somehow businesses think they can pay people less than it costs to live.

delfinom 3y ago
It's fine, most banks don't directly finance small businesses lmao. They make you take out personal loans instead.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
randomdata 3y ago
> If have to pay your people below market wages to survive you don't have a business How does one pay below market wages? Someone's market wage is established by observing what they are being paid. They will always be equal, unless you mean an employer is illegally withholding funds owed to the worker? > I cannot buy produce from a farmer for less than it costs them to grow it Haha. As a farmer, I have lost money selling my produce more times than I wish to count. The customer couldn't care less about how much it costs you to produce a product. They are only going to pay what it is worth to them and not a penny more. The secret to a sustainable farm business is understanding how to weather those times when it costs more to grow the food than what the customer will pay.
- TylerE 3y ago
  Well, probably the most traditional way is to hire for approx market rate... and then given little or no raises/cost of living adjutsments. Bam, 5 years from now, you're well under market rate.

BeetleB 3y ago

> Just like my friend who shut down his cabinetry business because he was paying his employees more than himself (doing the "right thing"). I've listened to almost all the How I Built This episodes, and paying your employees more than you are paying yourself is fairly common. You need to pay everyone market rates to retain them, and there often isn't enough left over to pay yourself well (if at all).