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> Somehow finances have to work, which is usually a harsh reality for some. Ex: Hey we can't pay workers $250/hr without raises prices to above what customers a

> Somehow finances have to work, which is usually a harsh reality for some. Ex: Hey we can't pay workers $250/hr without raises prices to above what customers are willing to pay If it was worker owned wouldn't you just pay everyone some reasonable wage that the business can afford and then also split profits evenly?

dnissley 3y ago
Don't forget to split the losses evenly as well!
- dgb23 3y ago
  You are joking, but that's not untypical for worker owned businesses. There are studies about coops that show that workers are more engaged in the business and will decide to suffer temporary wage cuts in hard times (opposed to layoffs) in order to maintain the business long term. Two friends of mine actually have worked in the same restaurant coop at different times. The pay was fair, the conditions were good, the people were great and they had a high degree of agency. As you can imagine, they had high standards in terms of where they buy, what they produce and so on. Preferably local, fair etc. It's also a restaurant that exists since a long time. The negatives that both reported were: - Long meetings each month, there was no hierarchical structure. When the better argument wins (and not from who it is) then you need time to discuss things. - Criticizing or firing people is emotionally taxing. There was _never_ a complaint of shared responsibility in financial terms. That's a given. That's what you sign up for.
Nifty3929 3y ago
Yes, but only if there is enough money to pay the base wage in the first place, which is far from a foregone conclusion. Let alone having any profit left to distribute.
- p1necone 3y ago
  Sure, but that's not a problem unique to worker owned businesses, any business without enough revenue to pay its bills is going to fall over.
  - crabmusket 3y ago
    Not if they keep raising investment rounds! Which is an option that worker-owned businesses simply don't have.
    - DangitBobby 3y ago
      I don't see Kelly's Big Burger raising investment rounds, TBH.
carabiner 3y ago
What is "reasonable," what is "fair." These words signify a death spiral in wage discussions. The reality is that businesses cannot increase prices forever and have a market that still wants to pay them. If I sell burgers for $10k and they're shit burgers then I'd make no money and have to shut it all down. Just like my friend who shut down his cabinetry business because he was paying his employees more than himself (doing the "right thing"). He is a one man shop working out of his van and is doing much better, but his employees' wages became 0.
- kikokikokiko 3y ago
  Some years ago a burger joint opened in my neighborhood, a very hispsterish kind of place. I went once, and saw a message attached to the menu, saying that 50% of the revenue obtained from every burger would be donated to some cause du jour, probably climate change related, bla bla bla. To me it signified that the burgers they sold were at least 100% overpriced when compared to what they should cost if they were trying to have a profitable business. Fun fact: they were, and their burger joint went under in a couple of months. Capitalism wins in the end, it doesn't matter if you want to fight it, the sun always rises again.
- fn-mote 3y ago
  The restaurant has been in business 10 years. I think that evidence makes me dismiss your comment as pessimistic hyperbole. If the wages really didn't work, the restaurant would have been long gone. I acknowledge that you have seen something similar not work out, first hand, but in this case it is apparently different.
- no_butterscotch 3y ago
  > What is "reasonable," what is "fair." These words signify a death spiral in wage discussions. Another commenter commented on a burger-joint giving a share to "climate" causes. What a share entails in this case, whether it comes from profit, or whether they pass the cost of this cause to the customer is unknown. Additionally I live in a place where there are reparations discussions and where unions agreed that teachers of a certain ethnicity would be eliminated first in the name of equity if it came down to staff cuts. How does this play into the scenario if these types of events happen more often, even discussing these things is difficult and people could veer away from. I heard that Amazon inserted "woke" discussions into union talks in Georgia in an effort to de-rail them, not to engender unity.
danielheath 3y ago
It’s challenging to retain senior staff at those rates; there’s a limit to how much of a cut I’ll take to work at a cooperative.
- bscphil 3y ago
  I mean, it's usually part of the premise of "worker owned" that there's going to be a heavy reduction in what you might kindly call administrative staff.
  - danielheath 3y ago
    Concretely: I recently saw a worker-owned coop offering everyone 60k euro per annum regardless of role (fully remote). That's livable almost anywhere, and it's a reasonable salary for a mid-level dev in the Phillipines, but more experienced folk are going to find it hard to give up the option of earning 2-4 times as much. Their product is flaky as hell and it's driving customers away in spite of their unique positioning.

dnissley 3y ago

Don't forget to split the losses evenly as well!

dgb23 3y ago
You are joking, but that's not untypical for worker owned businesses. There are studies about coops that show that workers are more engaged in the business and will decide to suffer temporary wage cuts in hard times (opposed to layoffs) in order to maintain the business long term. Two friends of mine actually have worked in the same restaurant coop at different times. The pay was fair, the conditions were good, the people were great and they had a high degree of agency. As you can imagine, they had high standards in terms of where they buy, what they produce and so on. Preferably local, fair etc. It's also a restaurant that exists since a long time. The negatives that both reported were: - Long meetings each month, there was no hierarchical structure. When the better argument wins (and not from who it is) then you need time to discuss things. - Criticizing or firing people is emotionally taxing. There was _never_ a complaint of shared responsibility in financial terms. That's a given. That's what you sign up for.

Nifty3929 3y ago

Yes, but only if there is enough money to pay the base wage in the first place, which is far from a foregone conclusion. Let alone having any profit left to distribute.

p1necone 3y ago
Sure, but that's not a problem unique to worker owned businesses, any business without enough revenue to pay its bills is going to fall over.
- crabmusket 3y ago
  Not if they keep raising investment rounds! Which is an option that worker-owned businesses simply don't have.
  - DangitBobby 3y ago
    I don't see Kelly's Big Burger raising investment rounds, TBH.

carabiner 3y ago

What is "reasonable," what is "fair." These words signify a death spiral in wage discussions. The reality is that businesses cannot increase prices forever and have a market that still wants to pay them. If I sell burgers for $10k and they're shit burgers then I'd make no money and have to shut it all down. Just like my friend who shut down his cabinetry business because he was paying his employees more than himself (doing the "right thing"). He is a one man shop working out of his van and is doing much better, but his employees' wages became 0.

kikokikokiko 3y ago
Some years ago a burger joint opened in my neighborhood, a very hispsterish kind of place. I went once, and saw a message attached to the menu, saying that 50% of the revenue obtained from every burger would be donated to some cause du jour, probably climate change related, bla bla bla. To me it signified that the burgers they sold were at least 100% overpriced when compared to what they should cost if they were trying to have a profitable business. Fun fact: they were, and their burger joint went under in a couple of months. Capitalism wins in the end, it doesn't matter if you want to fight it, the sun always rises again.
fn-mote 3y ago
The restaurant has been in business 10 years. I think that evidence makes me dismiss your comment as pessimistic hyperbole. If the wages really didn't work, the restaurant would have been long gone. I acknowledge that you have seen something similar not work out, first hand, but in this case it is apparently different.
no_butterscotch 3y ago
> What is "reasonable," what is "fair." These words signify a death spiral in wage discussions. Another commenter commented on a burger-joint giving a share to "climate" causes. What a share entails in this case, whether it comes from profit, or whether they pass the cost of this cause to the customer is unknown. Additionally I live in a place where there are reparations discussions and where unions agreed that teachers of a certain ethnicity would be eliminated first in the name of equity if it came down to staff cuts. How does this play into the scenario if these types of events happen more often, even discussing these things is difficult and people could veer away from. I heard that Amazon inserted "woke" discussions into union talks in Georgia in an effort to de-rail them, not to engender unity.

danielheath 3y ago

It’s challenging to retain senior staff at those rates; there’s a limit to how much of a cut I’ll take to work at a cooperative.

bscphil 3y ago
I mean, it's usually part of the premise of "worker owned" that there's going to be a heavy reduction in what you might kindly call administrative staff.
- danielheath 3y ago
  Concretely: I recently saw a worker-owned coop offering everyone 60k euro per annum regardless of role (fully remote). That's livable almost anywhere, and it's a reasonable salary for a mid-level dev in the Phillipines, but more experienced folk are going to find it hard to give up the option of earning 2-4 times as much. Their product is flaky as hell and it's driving customers away in spite of their unique positioning.