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> A lot of the false accusations, spamming of negative links, and misinformation arguably comes from those with competing or hidden interests. It's a lot of lan

> A lot of the false accusations, spamming of negative links, and misinformation arguably comes from those with competing or hidden interests. It's a lot of language war antics, that got out of control. Arguably? According to who? What evidence supports such a claim?

ModernMech 3y ago
When V was first announced, the author made a lot of outlandish claims about what the language was able to do. Experienced language developers saw this immediately and pointed out correctly that the claims ranged from exaggerated and premature, to impossible based on current PL theory. Apparently the V community has decided that constructive and valid criticism from peers is an act of "war", and it's to be discounted because they are "competitors" and "rivals" who are "salty". Notably the criticism died down a little (from the Zig author in particular) when the Vlang devs backed off some of the more outlandish claims and correctly added "WIP" labels to them instead of implying that they were actually working and implemented. So the Vlang devs/community at the time at least recognized they were doing something wrong in how they were communicating their work; although today in this thread it seems like they are trying to back peddle.
- delian66 3y ago
  I would appreciate, for you to not speak about the V community and V devs, which consists of many people (660 contributors currently), with various positions and attitudes, including me. I have not spoken about anyone being a salty rival, whatever that means. Thanks in advance.
  - ModernMech 3y ago
    The lead developer and very vocal community members brigade HN every time V is mentioned. They form the basis of my opinion of your whole community — you maybe should send some more measured voices here if you feel they don’t represent you. The impression they give off has informed my opinion, and if you don’t like that it’s your job to change my opinion through positive interactions. Meanwhile I’ll voice my opinion as much as I like thank you very much. The words in quotes are from what appear to be ambassadors of the V language here on HN. If you feel they don’t represent your community, maybe ask them to stop brigading instead of asking me to shut my mouth? Just another example of the V community I guess…
    - amedvednikov 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - ModernMech 3y ago
        What you and your community do on HN reflects on you, regardless of what anyone else does. You're earning your reputation one post at a time. I mean, several of your posts here are dead and flagged. Take a hint. Your evangelism isn't working here, it's doing the opposite of what you want. My suggestion is to work on your C++ to V translation engine instead of posting here. Maybe you'll move it past the early stage.
        amedvednikov 3y ago
        You're spamming this thread and with your anti V attacks, have a bunch of them downvoted and flagged, and are teaching me about communication... So rude indeed.
        ModernMech 3y ago
        I never claimed to be anything, and I have no dead or flagged comments. But I'm an asshole. I'm very rude and blunt. That's a given. Never claimed otherwise. But I'm not the leader of a community I'm trying to build. That's you. You need to take a higher road if you want to build a positive reputation. Or you can roll around with pigs like me and get a reputation for being muddy. The fact that you turn it back to me personally when you should be standing on the merits of your work says everything I need to know about you and your community. Change my mind.
        delian66 3y ago
        > I never claimed to be anything, and I have no dead or flagged comments. You just said yourself, that you are an asshole, rude and blunt, after insulting a whole community of people ... Have you thought, that maybe you should stop? > Or you can roll around with pigs like me and get a reputation for being muddy. I am a farmer. I live in a village in Bulgaria, and I've had to deal with actual pigs before from time to time... Pigs should know their place, and it is not, where people discuss ideas.
- Tozen 3y ago
  V has the right to exist, have its supporters, and do things its own way. The creator and developers of V, from what I have seen, have responded well to actual constructive criticism. Their language has discussions opened at their GitHub, unlike those for various other languages. They even have a thread for what people don't like and want improved about the language[1], again, something many other languages don't have. A lot of what was going on initially, was coming from obvious competitors and evangelists, to include being uncivil, inflammatory, and directly insulting. The initial "criticism" was not so much that, but false accusations of the language being a scam, vaporware, fraud, or didn't really exist. To include attacks and jealousy over donations, rising popularity, and having supporters. This was not any kind of "valid" criticism, that the creator or contributors of the language could reason about with instigators. The "criticism" never died down, but rather V was open-sourced and established itself on GitHub. The initial series of false accusations could not stand nor could the support it was getting be stopped. So, the rhetoric and targets shifted to whatever could be found to go after on the newly released alpha version of the language and its new website. In that new mix of what was being thrown at it, there were indeed some very valid criticisms, as can be found with any new language and many sites. Constructive and valid criticism, is not the same as insults, trolling, misinformation, rivalry, or false accusations. There is clearly a difference. It's disingenuous to pretend something from one group is the same as the other, or that the intent behind what is being done is not different. [1] https://github.com/vlang/v/discussions/7610 https://github.com/vlang/v/discussions/7610
  - Mawr 3y ago
    > The "criticism" never died down, Well, that's because the reason behind the criticism was never really the language. It was the attitude of its author and proponents. Sadly, this very thread proves that that attitude has not changed [1] one bit, so it's no wonder the criticisms remain. > The initial "criticism" was not so much that, but false accusations of the language being a scam, vaporware, fraud, or didn't really exist. Backlash is to be expected whenever extraordinary claims get made with nothing to back them up. Apparently V is supposed to be able to translate entire C & C++ projects to V and run as fast as C, but with memory freed automatically by the compiler. Now, combine such impossible claims with the initial unavailability of the source code, asking for donations, refusing to elaborate on how exactly this would work, and the fact that none of is is true even today. That's because none of the outrageous claims are possible. They weren't possible back when V was announced either and when the programming community immediately pointed it out, the response was the same as we've seen in every thread since then - gaslighting. It's one thing to make hopeful and starry-eyed, but misguided claims, it's another to double down on them, deny any mistakes, and play a victim. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31793554 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31793554

ModernMech 3y ago

When V was first announced, the author made a lot of outlandish claims about what the language was able to do. Experienced language developers saw this immediately and pointed out correctly that the claims ranged from exaggerated and premature, to impossible based on current PL theory. Apparently the V community has decided that constructive and valid criticism from peers is an act of "war", and it's to be discounted because they are "competitors" and "rivals" who are "salty". Notably the criticism died down a little (from the Zig author in particular) when the Vlang devs backed off some of the more outlandish claims and correctly added "WIP" labels to them instead of implying that they were actually working and implemented. So the Vlang devs/community at the time at least recognized they were doing something wrong in how they were communicating their work; although today in this thread it seems like they are trying to back peddle.

delian66 3y ago
I would appreciate, for you to not speak about the V community and V devs, which consists of many people (660 contributors currently), with various positions and attitudes, including me. I have not spoken about anyone being a salty rival, whatever that means. Thanks in advance.
- ModernMech 3y ago
  The lead developer and very vocal community members brigade HN every time V is mentioned. They form the basis of my opinion of your whole community — you maybe should send some more measured voices here if you feel they don’t represent you. The impression they give off has informed my opinion, and if you don’t like that it’s your job to change my opinion through positive interactions. Meanwhile I’ll voice my opinion as much as I like thank you very much. The words in quotes are from what appear to be ambassadors of the V language here on HN. If you feel they don’t represent your community, maybe ask them to stop brigading instead of asking me to shut my mouth? Just another example of the V community I guess…
  - amedvednikov 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - ModernMech 3y ago
      What you and your community do on HN reflects on you, regardless of what anyone else does. You're earning your reputation one post at a time. I mean, several of your posts here are dead and flagged. Take a hint. Your evangelism isn't working here, it's doing the opposite of what you want. My suggestion is to work on your C++ to V translation engine instead of posting here. Maybe you'll move it past the early stage.
      - amedvednikov 3y ago
        You're spamming this thread and with your anti V attacks, have a bunch of them downvoted and flagged, and are teaching me about communication... So rude indeed.
        ModernMech 3y ago
        I never claimed to be anything, and I have no dead or flagged comments. But I'm an asshole. I'm very rude and blunt. That's a given. Never claimed otherwise. But I'm not the leader of a community I'm trying to build. That's you. You need to take a higher road if you want to build a positive reputation. Or you can roll around with pigs like me and get a reputation for being muddy. The fact that you turn it back to me personally when you should be standing on the merits of your work says everything I need to know about you and your community. Change my mind.
        delian66 3y ago
        > I never claimed to be anything, and I have no dead or flagged comments. You just said yourself, that you are an asshole, rude and blunt, after insulting a whole community of people ... Have you thought, that maybe you should stop? > Or you can roll around with pigs like me and get a reputation for being muddy. I am a farmer. I live in a village in Bulgaria, and I've had to deal with actual pigs before from time to time... Pigs should know their place, and it is not, where people discuss ideas.
Tozen 3y ago
V has the right to exist, have its supporters, and do things its own way. The creator and developers of V, from what I have seen, have responded well to actual constructive criticism. Their language has discussions opened at their GitHub, unlike those for various other languages. They even have a thread for what people don't like and want improved about the language[1], again, something many other languages don't have. A lot of what was going on initially, was coming from obvious competitors and evangelists, to include being uncivil, inflammatory, and directly insulting. The initial "criticism" was not so much that, but false accusations of the language being a scam, vaporware, fraud, or didn't really exist. To include attacks and jealousy over donations, rising popularity, and having supporters. This was not any kind of "valid" criticism, that the creator or contributors of the language could reason about with instigators. The "criticism" never died down, but rather V was open-sourced and established itself on GitHub. The initial series of false accusations could not stand nor could the support it was getting be stopped. So, the rhetoric and targets shifted to whatever could be found to go after on the newly released alpha version of the language and its new website. In that new mix of what was being thrown at it, there were indeed some very valid criticisms, as can be found with any new language and many sites. Constructive and valid criticism, is not the same as insults, trolling, misinformation, rivalry, or false accusations. There is clearly a difference. It's disingenuous to pretend something from one group is the same as the other, or that the intent behind what is being done is not different. [1] https://github.com/vlang/v/discussions/7610 https://github.com/vlang/v/discussions/7610
- Mawr 3y ago
  > The "criticism" never died down, Well, that's because the reason behind the criticism was never really the language. It was the attitude of its author and proponents. Sadly, this very thread proves that that attitude has not changed [1] one bit, so it's no wonder the criticisms remain. > The initial "criticism" was not so much that, but false accusations of the language being a scam, vaporware, fraud, or didn't really exist. Backlash is to be expected whenever extraordinary claims get made with nothing to back them up. Apparently V is supposed to be able to translate entire C & C++ projects to V and run as fast as C, but with memory freed automatically by the compiler. Now, combine such impossible claims with the initial unavailability of the source code, asking for donations, refusing to elaborate on how exactly this would work, and the fact that none of is is true even today. That's because none of the outrageous claims are possible. They weren't possible back when V was announced either and when the programming community immediately pointed it out, the response was the same as we've seen in every thread since then - gaslighting. It's one thing to make hopeful and starry-eyed, but misguided claims, it's another to double down on them, deny any mistakes, and play a victim. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31793554 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31793554