4 ms·

> I've seen examples of an employee contract, with things like "if any piece of this contract is invalid it doesn't invalidate the rest of the contract". This

> I've seen examples of an employee contract, with things like "if any piece of this contract is invalid it doesn't invalidate the rest of the contract". This concept of severability exists in basically all contracts, and is generally limited to sections that are not fundamental to the nature of the agreement. (The extent of what qualifies as fundamental is, as you said, up to a court to interpret.) In your specific example of an employee contract, severability actually protects you too, by ensuring all the other covenants of your agreement - especially the ones that protect you as the individual - will remain in force even if a sub section is invalidated. Otherwise, if the whole contract were invalidated, you'd be starting from nothing (and likely out of a job). Some protections are better than zero.

Buttons840 3y ago
> especially the ones that protect you as the individual - will remain in force even if a sub section is invalidated In a right-to-work state, what protections can an individual realistically expect to receive from a contract?
- abduhl 3y ago
  The employment of an individual that has an employment contract is governed by the strictest set of rules between the right-to-work state's laws and the employment contract. Literally every permissible provision of an employment contract can be a protection: golden parachutes, vacation days, sick days, payout of the same, IP guarantees for hobby work, employment benefits, etc. Right to work at its most generic level means freedom from being forced into a union, not freedom from being held to a contract.
  - feoren 3y ago
    > golden parachutes Nobody has these except top execs who are already in a huge position of power. > vacation days, sick days, payout of the same Nope, not anymore: nothing is guaranteed with "flexible time off". I literally cannot meet my performance goal if I take more than 1 day of sick/vacation day PER YEAR. Yes, my raises are tied to this performance goal. Yes, it's probably illegal, but who cares? Nobody is ever going to do anything about it. This is every company with FTO. Who gets "paid out" for PTO anymore? > IP guarantees for hobby work You're joking, right? Most employment contracts claim that they own the slam poetry you write on your napkin at 2:00 am on a Saturday while high on your couch. Every mention of IP in an employment contract is as greedy as possible. > employment benefits Ok but in a right to work state these can be terminated any time anyway. Literally nothing about an employment contract is ever written in favor of the actual employee. Of course it's not: they wrote it. If every company in an industry does this and they all refuse to negotiate, workers have no choice but to sign it. It's crazy to me to think that a U.S. company would voluntarily ever do anything in the interest of any of its employees, ever. This is the whole reason why ambiguities are supposed to go in favor of the party that didn't write it. Voiding any part of an employee contract can therefore only ever benefit the employee (except possibly the part where they get paid). If you want protections for employees, look to regulation and unions, not contracts written by the employer.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - _dain_ 3y ago
      > I literally cannot meet my performance goal if I take more than 1 day of sick/vacation day PER YEAR. why not get another job?
      - feoren 3y ago
        Because for all the bullshit I have to put up with, and all the things I hate about management, and all the things that could easily be better but for one asshole vice-president needing to cosplay Business Hero ... for all of that, the job is deeply interesting and I learn a ton every day. And virtually every other job on the market is mind-numbingly boring and pointless. And because I like my immediate teammates a lot. And because the issues I'm railing against are incredibly pervasive in most companies in the United States and probably beyond. Our capitalism has been completely taken over by a caste of parasitic leeches who enshittify everything they touch and I am under no illusion that any other job would be any different. But I do also look for other jobs regularly. Finding a job that is both interesting (<1%) and not full of shithead management (<5%) is about 1 in 2,000.
    - abduhl 3y ago
      I don’t know what to say in response to your complaints except negotiate better working conditions next time you get hired. The company wrote it. You accepted it. You can always ask for different terms and walk away if they don’t agree, start your own company, or change industries to one where companies are willing to negotiate. If you want protections for employees, sure you can (erroneously, in my opinion) look to unions. If you want protections for yourself, look to negotiate.
      - feoren 3y ago
        > You can always ask for different terms and walk away if they don’t agree, start your own company, or change industries to one where companies are willing to negotiate. I suspect you have lived a very privileged life if you really believe these options are actually open to most employees in the U.S. Switch industries? Start your own company? Those are both extreme life-altering multi-year responses to losing PTO payout, and only work for people who have major safety nets and support in their lives. Companies pull this bullshit because they know they can get away with it. Guess what: they're right. I'm glad you are in such a state of privilege that you can spend 4 years going back to college and switching industries without going into massive debt and without suffering from the loss of income during that time, but you are extremely lucky to be in that position. Do not assume others are lazy and/or stupid and/or bad negotiators because they can't. Negotiating is not about shaking hands harder, it's about having leverage, and 98% of U.S. workers have none. > negotiate better working conditions next time you get hired These were not the working conditions at the time I was hired. None of this was in any contract I signed. Companies change this stuff after-the-fact all the time. What are you going to do, hire an employment lawyer? You'd poison your own drinking well, potentially forever, with the possible upside of being the only employee in your company that actually get PTO paid out? Come on. Nobody is doing this. Companies pull this bullshit because they can.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- mentalpiracy 3y ago
  An employment contract is intended to backstop everything you were promised or negotiated during the hiring process. It doesn't really matter if you're in a right-to-work state or not, an employment contract provides you with recourse if the terms are not upheld by your employer. In the case of a breach, that is something you can remedy in court. (Whether or not it is worthwhile to pursue that legal case depends entirely on the context) * anything you negotiated during hiring like RSU or sign-on bonuses * stating your salary, benefits, vacation is the basis for protecting you from theft of that compensation. * IP ownership clauses can protect your independent, off the clock work * work location, if you are hired remote and then threatened with termination due to new RTO policies I am just pulling from the top of my head general examples.
- ZoomerCretin 3y ago
  "Right-to-Work" refers to the inability of unions to negotiate closed shops, where all employees of that "shop" must be part of the union. You're thinking of "At-Will" employment, which allows employees and employers to end an employment relationship at any time for any (except for the few illegal) reasons.
- ianburrell 3y ago
  Employment contracts can govern firing. You can have a contract that says can only be fired for cause and get one month of notice for other dismissals. Actual employment contracts are rare in the US. I think because don't want legal hassle for most employees, but executives and other important employees have contracts. Other countries have contracts for every employee. I assume they use a standard contract for most employees, and that the laws limit the scope.
- OkayPhysicist 3y ago
  Right-to-work is about quashing union shops. You're thinking about "at-will" employment, which is the law of the land everywhere except Montana. But an employee contract overrides at-will employment: If your contract says your employer can't fire you, your employer can't fire you without being in breach of contract.
ipaddr 3y ago
But then your dismal will be governed by common law which could mean years of back pay depending on where you live.

Buttons840 3y ago

> especially the ones that protect you as the individual - will remain in force even if a sub section is invalidated In a right-to-work state, what protections can an individual realistically expect to receive from a contract?

abduhl 3y ago
The employment of an individual that has an employment contract is governed by the strictest set of rules between the right-to-work state's laws and the employment contract. Literally every permissible provision of an employment contract can be a protection: golden parachutes, vacation days, sick days, payout of the same, IP guarantees for hobby work, employment benefits, etc. Right to work at its most generic level means freedom from being forced into a union, not freedom from being held to a contract.
- feoren 3y ago
  > golden parachutes Nobody has these except top execs who are already in a huge position of power. > vacation days, sick days, payout of the same Nope, not anymore: nothing is guaranteed with "flexible time off". I literally cannot meet my performance goal if I take more than 1 day of sick/vacation day PER YEAR. Yes, my raises are tied to this performance goal. Yes, it's probably illegal, but who cares? Nobody is ever going to do anything about it. This is every company with FTO. Who gets "paid out" for PTO anymore? > IP guarantees for hobby work You're joking, right? Most employment contracts claim that they own the slam poetry you write on your napkin at 2:00 am on a Saturday while high on your couch. Every mention of IP in an employment contract is as greedy as possible. > employment benefits Ok but in a right to work state these can be terminated any time anyway. Literally nothing about an employment contract is ever written in favor of the actual employee. Of course it's not: they wrote it. If every company in an industry does this and they all refuse to negotiate, workers have no choice but to sign it. It's crazy to me to think that a U.S. company would voluntarily ever do anything in the interest of any of its employees, ever. This is the whole reason why ambiguities are supposed to go in favor of the party that didn't write it. Voiding any part of an employee contract can therefore only ever benefit the employee (except possibly the part where they get paid). If you want protections for employees, look to regulation and unions, not contracts written by the employer.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - _dain_ 3y ago
    > I literally cannot meet my performance goal if I take more than 1 day of sick/vacation day PER YEAR. why not get another job?
    - feoren 3y ago
      Because for all the bullshit I have to put up with, and all the things I hate about management, and all the things that could easily be better but for one asshole vice-president needing to cosplay Business Hero ... for all of that, the job is deeply interesting and I learn a ton every day. And virtually every other job on the market is mind-numbingly boring and pointless. And because I like my immediate teammates a lot. And because the issues I'm railing against are incredibly pervasive in most companies in the United States and probably beyond. Our capitalism has been completely taken over by a caste of parasitic leeches who enshittify everything they touch and I am under no illusion that any other job would be any different. But I do also look for other jobs regularly. Finding a job that is both interesting (<1%) and not full of shithead management (<5%) is about 1 in 2,000.
  - abduhl 3y ago
    I don’t know what to say in response to your complaints except negotiate better working conditions next time you get hired. The company wrote it. You accepted it. You can always ask for different terms and walk away if they don’t agree, start your own company, or change industries to one where companies are willing to negotiate. If you want protections for employees, sure you can (erroneously, in my opinion) look to unions. If you want protections for yourself, look to negotiate.
    - feoren 3y ago
      > You can always ask for different terms and walk away if they don’t agree, start your own company, or change industries to one where companies are willing to negotiate. I suspect you have lived a very privileged life if you really believe these options are actually open to most employees in the U.S. Switch industries? Start your own company? Those are both extreme life-altering multi-year responses to losing PTO payout, and only work for people who have major safety nets and support in their lives. Companies pull this bullshit because they know they can get away with it. Guess what: they're right. I'm glad you are in such a state of privilege that you can spend 4 years going back to college and switching industries without going into massive debt and without suffering from the loss of income during that time, but you are extremely lucky to be in that position. Do not assume others are lazy and/or stupid and/or bad negotiators because they can't. Negotiating is not about shaking hands harder, it's about having leverage, and 98% of U.S. workers have none. > negotiate better working conditions next time you get hired These were not the working conditions at the time I was hired. None of this was in any contract I signed. Companies change this stuff after-the-fact all the time. What are you going to do, hire an employment lawyer? You'd poison your own drinking well, potentially forever, with the possible upside of being the only employee in your company that actually get PTO paid out? Come on. Nobody is doing this. Companies pull this bullshit because they can.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
mentalpiracy 3y ago
An employment contract is intended to backstop everything you were promised or negotiated during the hiring process. It doesn't really matter if you're in a right-to-work state or not, an employment contract provides you with recourse if the terms are not upheld by your employer. In the case of a breach, that is something you can remedy in court. (Whether or not it is worthwhile to pursue that legal case depends entirely on the context) * anything you negotiated during hiring like RSU or sign-on bonuses * stating your salary, benefits, vacation is the basis for protecting you from theft of that compensation. * IP ownership clauses can protect your independent, off the clock work * work location, if you are hired remote and then threatened with termination due to new RTO policies I am just pulling from the top of my head general examples.
ZoomerCretin 3y ago
"Right-to-Work" refers to the inability of unions to negotiate closed shops, where all employees of that "shop" must be part of the union. You're thinking of "At-Will" employment, which allows employees and employers to end an employment relationship at any time for any (except for the few illegal) reasons.
ianburrell 3y ago
Employment contracts can govern firing. You can have a contract that says can only be fired for cause and get one month of notice for other dismissals. Actual employment contracts are rare in the US. I think because don't want legal hassle for most employees, but executives and other important employees have contracts. Other countries have contracts for every employee. I assume they use a standard contract for most employees, and that the laws limit the scope.
OkayPhysicist 3y ago
Right-to-work is about quashing union shops. You're thinking about "at-will" employment, which is the law of the land everywhere except Montana. But an employee contract overrides at-will employment: If your contract says your employer can't fire you, your employer can't fire you without being in breach of contract.

ipaddr 3y ago

But then your dismal will be governed by common law which could mean years of back pay depending on where you live.