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> If Reddit says X but Wikipedia says Y, do you trust X to be true or do you trust Y to be true? Neither. One – or both – of them might be true, but who cares?

> If Reddit says X but Wikipedia says Y, do you trust X to be true or do you trust Y to be true? Neither. One – or both – of them might be true, but who cares? It is not advantageous to give it much concern. We have evolved to not rely on truths. "Is that a lion rustling those bushes or just the wind? Let me be absolutely certain it is a lion before I run." said no one who successfully passed on their genes ever. Truths don't matter much, and the reality is that we're not capable of processing full truths anyway, having to rely on simplifications that lose a lot of the important nuance. > Wikipedia's editors are highly respected by everyone. Reddit... not so much. That's like saying librarians garner more respect than comedians. That might be the case when observed through some particular lens, but they're really not comparable. What would that even mean? And if this is the measure of success we want to use, I am struggling to understand why Wikipedia and Reddit were brought together for comparison.

dragontamer 3y ago
COVID19 literally killed people I knew because they were too stupid to mask up and/or vaccinate people. Truths matter. And the others who survived it are physically weaker (worse breathing) and have seemingly permanently lost their smell. So yes, truths matter. Those who follow falsehoods will lead themselves (and their kin) into the depths of despair. While cheering and falsely claiming victory because victory/feeling good about their decisions is more important to truths to them. That's... fine. Darwin's law will deal with them over time. But I'll stay on the side of truth thanks very much. -------------- I'm also in the business of programming, which is largely in the business of truths. Is X easier than Y? Do people prefer X or Y? Is X a better design than Y? Etc. etc. You can't fundamentally alter ground truths, no matter how much money you throw into reputation. Eventually, the truth wins out as the money runs out. Seeking truth first leads to being correct over the long term, as the untruthful die out and/or fail in their projects. Don't lose sight of the truth. There's objective truths that people have been failing to accept very recently. Editors who care about the objective truth and seek it (however flawed our seeking of the truth is), is going to over the long term, reach the truth faster. Of course, broken clocks are occasionally correct (possibly more correct) than the truthseekers. But I've got more confidence in some communities than others. I also recognize that truthseekers are _NOT_ as popular as I once thought, and that we have a need to create curated communities where truth-seeking is favored over popularity-machines that Twitter and/or Reddit prefers to generate. (likely due to advertising revenue. Youtube and TikTok seem to be falling into the same trap).
- randomdata 3y ago
  > COVID19 literally killed people I knew because they were too stupid to mask up and/or vaccinate people. A fantastic example of the truth not mattering. Is a lion or just the wind? What difference does it make? Run either way! I put no effort into ensuring that it is true that masks are helpful, or if the vaccine would stave off the illness. Simply, the mental model of the world indicated that they posed no real harm in trying, so why not go for it? If it actually helped, great. If I wasted my time, also great! Who cares? I'm sure all of us have flaws in our mental model of the world that will cause us to do something we shouldn't in some circumstance, but sharing of truths do nothing to correct those flaws. It is not like the truth about COIVD-19 isn't out there, but obviously it didn't help those who suffered. > I'm also in the business of programming, which is largely in the business of truths. Funny, I am too and it is exceedingly rare to find anyone who goes beyond gut feeling. Understandably so, as that's how our mind evolved to function. In fact, programmers love to argue about which gut feeling is right.
  - dragontamer 3y ago
    > A fantastic example of the truth not mattering. Is a lion or just the wind? What difference does it make? Run either way! We literally just had anti-mask protesters and anti-vaccine protesters take over one of the major political parties with major sway over a huge number of people's behavior (local municipalities, as well as large-scale behaviors of our society). At this point I think you're trolling me if you don't see why this is an important issue of our times. Despite these idiots injecting themselves with useless ivermectin, catching COVID19 and literally dying, I do care about their lives. Not only because of personal relationships, but also as a society they still play a role in the workforce, as fathers or mothers, or other sociological bonuses to our overall life. It is still a tragedy that they've basically killed themselves due to misinformation. ---------- There are other political issues of the now, and of the future, where the truth will also matter.
    - randomdata 3y ago
      > We literally just had anti-mask protesters and anti-vaccine protesters take over one of the major political parties. We also, at one point, had top doctors letting it be known that cloth masks increase the chance of infection. Not an unreasonable thing to say as the 2015, if I recall correctly, study in hospitals shows that medical professionals wearing cloth masks were at greater risk of infection of disease over wearing no mask due to increased incidents of face touching. Not unreasonable, but not true, was it? Followup studies around COVID-19 in the general population found very different results. Now imagine if we got wrapped up in being concerned about what is "true". We'd be left thinking cloth masks are detrimental. But as we weren't concerned about what is true, we were willing to keep evaluating the situation. > if you don't see why this is an important issue of our times. As opposed to all the other times the Anti-Mask League showed up?
akkartik 3y ago
It's not a measure of _their_ success we're concerned with. It's a measure of _our_ success if we trust them. Nobody is perfectly reliable. But some people and orgs are more reliable than others. How you choose to navigate this spectrum affects your life. I think that's all dragontamer is saying. And it seems reasonable.
- randomdata 3y ago
  > And it seems reasonable. It does seem reasonable. But is it true? We must ensure it is true before we do anything else! Just kidding. Whether or not it is true makes no difference.
  - akkartik 3y ago
    I'll leave you to apply sophistry to your heart's content, and your evolution will be some impossible-to-anticipate effect of your decisions regarding things you consider to be true or don't care about the truth of.

dragontamer 3y ago

COVID19 literally killed people I knew because they were too stupid to mask up and/or vaccinate people. Truths matter. And the others who survived it are physically weaker (worse breathing) and have seemingly permanently lost their smell. So yes, truths matter. Those who follow falsehoods will lead themselves (and their kin) into the depths of despair. While cheering and falsely claiming victory because victory/feeling good about their decisions is more important to truths to them. That's... fine. Darwin's law will deal with them over time. But I'll stay on the side of truth thanks very much. -------------- I'm also in the business of programming, which is largely in the business of truths. Is X easier than Y? Do people prefer X or Y? Is X a better design than Y? Etc. etc. You can't fundamentally alter ground truths, no matter how much money you throw into reputation. Eventually, the truth wins out as the money runs out. Seeking truth first leads to being correct over the long term, as the untruthful die out and/or fail in their projects. Don't lose sight of the truth. There's objective truths that people have been failing to accept very recently. Editors who care about the objective truth and seek it (however flawed our seeking of the truth is), is going to over the long term, reach the truth faster. Of course, broken clocks are occasionally correct (possibly more correct) than the truthseekers. But I've got more confidence in some communities than others. I also recognize that truthseekers are _NOT_ as popular as I once thought, and that we have a need to create curated communities where truth-seeking is favored over popularity-machines that Twitter and/or Reddit prefers to generate. (likely due to advertising revenue. Youtube and TikTok seem to be falling into the same trap).

randomdata 3y ago
> COVID19 literally killed people I knew because they were too stupid to mask up and/or vaccinate people. A fantastic example of the truth not mattering. Is a lion or just the wind? What difference does it make? Run either way! I put no effort into ensuring that it is true that masks are helpful, or if the vaccine would stave off the illness. Simply, the mental model of the world indicated that they posed no real harm in trying, so why not go for it? If it actually helped, great. If I wasted my time, also great! Who cares? I'm sure all of us have flaws in our mental model of the world that will cause us to do something we shouldn't in some circumstance, but sharing of truths do nothing to correct those flaws. It is not like the truth about COIVD-19 isn't out there, but obviously it didn't help those who suffered. > I'm also in the business of programming, which is largely in the business of truths. Funny, I am too and it is exceedingly rare to find anyone who goes beyond gut feeling. Understandably so, as that's how our mind evolved to function. In fact, programmers love to argue about which gut feeling is right.
- dragontamer 3y ago
  > A fantastic example of the truth not mattering. Is a lion or just the wind? What difference does it make? Run either way! We literally just had anti-mask protesters and anti-vaccine protesters take over one of the major political parties with major sway over a huge number of people's behavior (local municipalities, as well as large-scale behaviors of our society). At this point I think you're trolling me if you don't see why this is an important issue of our times. Despite these idiots injecting themselves with useless ivermectin, catching COVID19 and literally dying, I do care about their lives. Not only because of personal relationships, but also as a society they still play a role in the workforce, as fathers or mothers, or other sociological bonuses to our overall life. It is still a tragedy that they've basically killed themselves due to misinformation. ---------- There are other political issues of the now, and of the future, where the truth will also matter.
  - randomdata 3y ago
    > We literally just had anti-mask protesters and anti-vaccine protesters take over one of the major political parties. We also, at one point, had top doctors letting it be known that cloth masks increase the chance of infection. Not an unreasonable thing to say as the 2015, if I recall correctly, study in hospitals shows that medical professionals wearing cloth masks were at greater risk of infection of disease over wearing no mask due to increased incidents of face touching. Not unreasonable, but not true, was it? Followup studies around COVID-19 in the general population found very different results. Now imagine if we got wrapped up in being concerned about what is "true". We'd be left thinking cloth masks are detrimental. But as we weren't concerned about what is true, we were willing to keep evaluating the situation. > if you don't see why this is an important issue of our times. As opposed to all the other times the Anti-Mask League showed up?

akkartik 3y ago

It's not a measure of _their_ success we're concerned with. It's a measure of _our_ success if we trust them. Nobody is perfectly reliable. But some people and orgs are more reliable than others. How you choose to navigate this spectrum affects your life. I think that's all dragontamer is saying. And it seems reasonable.

randomdata 3y ago
> And it seems reasonable. It does seem reasonable. But is it true? We must ensure it is true before we do anything else! Just kidding. Whether or not it is true makes no difference.
- akkartik 3y ago
  I'll leave you to apply sophistry to your heart's content, and your evolution will be some impossible-to-anticipate effect of your decisions regarding things you consider to be true or don't care about the truth of.