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Isn't it also quite a bit heavier?

jacquesm 3y ago
Yes, about 50%. So for the same amount of energy you need a larger and heavier battery. Typically the largest capacity Lithium Ion in 18650 format is roughly comparable to a 26650 LIFEPO4. And then there is still the voltage difference (nominally 3.2 for LIFEPO4 and 3.6 for Li-ion).
- loeg 3y ago
  50% heavier is kind of a problem for E-Bike applications, although maybe not on the low end.
  - getarofilter 3y ago
    [dead]
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Yes, it is, otoh on the weight of the whole bike it isn't a huge problem.
    - loeg 3y ago
      > otoh on the weight of the whole bike it isn't a huge problem. Why do you say this? Non-ebikes can be sub-16 lbs; ebike battery packs can weigh, like, on the order of 50 lbs. Ebike users sometimes need to lift the bikes (up stairs at home, or on/off transit). Battery pack weight absolutely dominates the design and utility of ebikes; any double-digit percent factor is very relevant (IMO).
      - jeffbee 3y ago
        > on the order of 50 lbs A really large e-bike battery is 4kg. Nobody is riding an e-bike with 50 pounds of batteries. Even the battery pack on a Zero FX, an electric motorcycle, is only 42 pounds.
        loeg 3y ago
        Huh, you're right. I wonder why the hell people are building 75 lb ebikes if even the large batteries are so light.
        jacquesm 3y ago
        That's because the motors are pretty heavy as well, and once you have that much torque available you'll need a frame and rear hub that can handle it too. My biggest e-bike is about 30Kg including a 2.2 KWh battery. Not quite 75 lb but getting there. The basic machine is a Riese&Mueller charger with a Bosch speed pedelec motor and the usual complement of brakes, gearing and bunch of bags. I don't mind the weight, but I've yet to find someone else that likes that bike. It's a bit of a pain to move around with the motor off but once you're on it and riding it's just like any other bike only more powerful and it lasts for a really long time on a single charge.
        jeffbee 3y ago
        I don't know either. I think part of it is that some e-bike customers are not otherwise bike buyers and go for the niche of huge-wheeled quasimotorcycle. I recommend keeping e-bike weight under 50 pounds because it is the design limit of the bike carriers on American buses and on Amtrak. There are plenty of e-bikes under 40 pounds even.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        I mean: relative to the total weight of an e-bike using one chemistry or another. A bigger issue is that batteries are often placed in very bad spots (such as riding high on the rear pannier).
  - pflanze 3y ago
    The 50% or so difference is when both batteries are new. From what I've read Li-ion degrade faster than LiFePO4, so the difference becomes smaller over time (and might even reverse, but I don't have actual data).
    - loeg 3y ago
      Interesting!

Yes, about 50%. So for the same amount of energy you need a larger and heavier battery. Typically the largest capacity Lithium Ion in 18650 format is roughly comparable to a 26650 LIFEPO4. And then there is still the voltage difference (nominally 3.2 for LIFEPO4 and 3.6 for Li-ion).

loeg 3y ago
50% heavier is kind of a problem for E-Bike applications, although maybe not on the low end.
- getarofilter 3y ago
  [dead]
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Yes, it is, otoh on the weight of the whole bike it isn't a huge problem.
  - loeg 3y ago
    > otoh on the weight of the whole bike it isn't a huge problem. Why do you say this? Non-ebikes can be sub-16 lbs; ebike battery packs can weigh, like, on the order of 50 lbs. Ebike users sometimes need to lift the bikes (up stairs at home, or on/off transit). Battery pack weight absolutely dominates the design and utility of ebikes; any double-digit percent factor is very relevant (IMO).
    - jeffbee 3y ago
      > on the order of 50 lbs A really large e-bike battery is 4kg. Nobody is riding an e-bike with 50 pounds of batteries. Even the battery pack on a Zero FX, an electric motorcycle, is only 42 pounds.
      - loeg 3y ago
        Huh, you're right. I wonder why the hell people are building 75 lb ebikes if even the large batteries are so light.
        jacquesm 3y ago
        That's because the motors are pretty heavy as well, and once you have that much torque available you'll need a frame and rear hub that can handle it too. My biggest e-bike is about 30Kg including a 2.2 KWh battery. Not quite 75 lb but getting there. The basic machine is a Riese&Mueller charger with a Bosch speed pedelec motor and the usual complement of brakes, gearing and bunch of bags. I don't mind the weight, but I've yet to find someone else that likes that bike. It's a bit of a pain to move around with the motor off but once you're on it and riding it's just like any other bike only more powerful and it lasts for a really long time on a single charge.
        jeffbee 3y ago
        I don't know either. I think part of it is that some e-bike customers are not otherwise bike buyers and go for the niche of huge-wheeled quasimotorcycle. I recommend keeping e-bike weight under 50 pounds because it is the design limit of the bike carriers on American buses and on Amtrak. There are plenty of e-bikes under 40 pounds even.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      I mean: relative to the total weight of an e-bike using one chemistry or another. A bigger issue is that batteries are often placed in very bad spots (such as riding high on the rear pannier).
- pflanze 3y ago
  The 50% or so difference is when both batteries are new. From what I've read Li-ion degrade faster than LiFePO4, so the difference becomes smaller over time (and might even reverse, but I don't have actual data).
  - loeg 3y ago
    Interesting!