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As an aside, but related to this topic, I can't wrap my head around on how one can purchase an apartment. My house's warranty deed explicitly defines the proper

by caeril 3y ago

As an aside, but related to this topic, I can't wrap my head around on how one can purchase an apartment. My house's warranty deed explicitly defines the property I own, with references to plat maps that have very specific survey measurements, etc. But if I buy a slice of a high rise building, what does the deed say? What does the plat map look like? Do I just own an N% slice of the underlying land? Do I own specifically the portion of the building that is M inches from the top of the foundation to M + Q inches above it, and X inches from the Northwest corner of the structure, etc? For rentals, it's straightforward, since the owner pre-specifies the dimensions of the unit numbers. But how does one "own" a section of a multi-tenant structure? How does one insure just their unit, if fire and other damage risk is shared?

J_Shelby_J 3y ago
All ownership is a legal fiction, including land ownership.
- kwere 3y ago
  Yeah, If you don't pay dues to the government on the property and they can take it away, you are a glorified renter
taeric 3y ago
Have you considered what ownership in a company looks like? Even your plat map of the land, how much of the land do you own? Can you dig it looking for things? Can you regrade it? And the very specific survey measurements are going to be based on landmarks that were likely planted for the purpose of making the survey work. Heaven help you if you have seismic activity move anything around. That is, all of this only works because we define it to do so. You can do the same with a high rise. Condos are very common and have well defined common areas and housing spaces. Things get more complicated when you consider time share ownership.
rewtraw 3y ago
I've always wondered the same, and understood it as "owning the airspace" within the specific unit, but not having any ownership of a physical structure. No control over the maintenance of the building would be a concern -- seems very an extreme version of "neighborhood deterioration" could easily occur. I know plenty of people in the US who own condos (usually part of a pair e.g. 1A/1B), but outside of major cities the idea of owning an "apartment" (a unit in a huge building full of hundreds of other units) is somewhat foreign. However, my relatives in eastern Europe own these types of apartments as their primary investment vehicle due to poorly performing native currency / stocks. ---- via ChatGPT: "The ownership of an apartment or condominium within a multi-unit building is indeed different from owning a single-family home. Here's how it typically works: ### Deed and Plat Map 1. *Deed*: The deed for a condominium or apartment within a high-rise will usually refer to a "unit" as defined in a "master deed" or "declaration" that has been recorded for the condominium. It will contain a description of the unit and any associated "common elements" that you may have an ownership interest in (e.g., shared hallways, gardens, and sometimes amenities like a gym or pool). 2. *Plat Map*: This would typically include a map of the entire complex, including the boundaries and location of each individual unit, along with common areas. These maps are often extremely detailed and have to be filed with a local government office. ### Ownership Structure 1. *Air Space*: In essence, you own the "air space" confined by the boundary walls of your unit, sometimes specified down to the paint on the walls. The structural elements, building exterior, and common areas are usually considered "common elements" owned collectively by all unit owners. 2. *Percentage Ownership*: Yes, you often own a percentage of the common elements, including the land upon which the building is constructed. This is sometimes proportional to the size of your unit as a percentage of the total building or complex size. ### Insurance and Liability 1. *Individual Insurance*: You would typically have a specialized form of homeowner's insurance known as an HO-6 policy that covers the internal elements of your unit (fixtures, improvements, personal property, etc.) and may provide liability coverage for incidents within your unit. 2. *Master Insurance*: The homeowners' association (HOA) will generally have a "master" insurance policy covering damage to the common elements and the overall structure. This is funded by HOA fees collected from the unit owners. 3. *Shared Risk*: The risk is essentially communal, but individual unit owners are usually responsible for the deductible on the master policy for damages originating in their units. Some complex scenarios could involve subrogation between the individual and master policies. Understanding your specific rights and responsibilities when purchasing a unit in a multi-unit structure is crucial, and legal counsel is usually advised to navigate the complexities. Always read the declaration, by-laws, and any rules and regulations to understand your ownership fully."
HDThoreaun 3y ago
In China the state owns all the land so this is less of a concern I guess. In the US there's usually some sort of HOA that you get a vote in that owns the land.

by caeril 3y ago

J_Shelby_J 3y ago

All ownership is a legal fiction, including land ownership.

kwere 3y ago
Yeah, If you don't pay dues to the government on the property and they can take it away, you are a glorified renter

taeric 3y ago

Have you considered what ownership in a company looks like? Even your plat map of the land, how much of the land do you own? Can you dig it looking for things? Can you regrade it? And the very specific survey measurements are going to be based on landmarks that were likely planted for the purpose of making the survey work. Heaven help you if you have seismic activity move anything around. That is, all of this only works because we define it to do so. You can do the same with a high rise. Condos are very common and have well defined common areas and housing spaces. Things get more complicated when you consider time share ownership.

rewtraw 3y ago

I've always wondered the same, and understood it as "owning the airspace" within the specific unit, but not having any ownership of a physical structure. No control over the maintenance of the building would be a concern -- seems very an extreme version of "neighborhood deterioration" could easily occur. I know plenty of people in the US who own condos (usually part of a pair e.g. 1A/1B), but outside of major cities the idea of owning an "apartment" (a unit in a huge building full of hundreds of other units) is somewhat foreign. However, my relatives in eastern Europe own these types of apartments as their primary investment vehicle due to poorly performing native currency / stocks. ---- via ChatGPT: "The ownership of an apartment or condominium within a multi-unit building is indeed different from owning a single-family home. Here's how it typically works: ### Deed and Plat Map 1. *Deed*: The deed for a condominium or apartment within a high-rise will usually refer to a "unit" as defined in a "master deed" or "declaration" that has been recorded for the condominium. It will contain a description of the unit and any associated "common elements" that you may have an ownership interest in (e.g., shared hallways, gardens, and sometimes amenities like a gym or pool). 2. *Plat Map*: This would typically include a map of the entire complex, including the boundaries and location of each individual unit, along with common areas. These maps are often extremely detailed and have to be filed with a local government office. ### Ownership Structure 1. *Air Space*: In essence, you own the "air space" confined by the boundary walls of your unit, sometimes specified down to the paint on the walls. The structural elements, building exterior, and common areas are usually considered "common elements" owned collectively by all unit owners. 2. *Percentage Ownership*: Yes, you often own a percentage of the common elements, including the land upon which the building is constructed. This is sometimes proportional to the size of your unit as a percentage of the total building or complex size. ### Insurance and Liability 1. *Individual Insurance*: You would typically have a specialized form of homeowner's insurance known as an HO-6 policy that covers the internal elements of your unit (fixtures, improvements, personal property, etc.) and may provide liability coverage for incidents within your unit. 2. *Master Insurance*: The homeowners' association (HOA) will generally have a "master" insurance policy covering damage to the common elements and the overall structure. This is funded by HOA fees collected from the unit owners. 3. *Shared Risk*: The risk is essentially communal, but individual unit owners are usually responsible for the deductible on the master policy for damages originating in their units. Some complex scenarios could involve subrogation between the individual and master policies. Understanding your specific rights and responsibilities when purchasing a unit in a multi-unit structure is crucial, and legal counsel is usually advised to navigate the complexities. Always read the declaration, by-laws, and any rules and regulations to understand your ownership fully."

HDThoreaun 3y ago

In China the state owns all the land so this is less of a concern I guess. In the US there's usually some sort of HOA that you get a vote in that owns the land.