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> Lithium Ion should be replaces ASAP by safer chemistries so we can sidestep this issue completely. As far as I'm concerned this should have never gotten as fa

> Lithium Ion should be replaces ASAP by safer chemistries so we can sidestep this issue completely. As far as I'm concerned this should have never gotten as far as it did and manufacturers that produce crap batteries (of which there are plenty!) should be held responsible. What should they be replaced with? I'm curious to know what alternate chemistry you're proposing for my e-bike battery.

tecleandor 3y ago
Usually, the safer replacement for Lithium Ion would be LiFePO4. Although I don't know how good performs in e-bikes (I guess it should be fine, as they're used in cars and other stuff...)
- jacquesm 3y ago
  It works just fine for that application. But: it is a little bit more expensive for the same capacity, and unfortunately the voltage is a little bit lower so it isn't a drop-in replacement.
  - Filligree 3y ago
    Isn't it also quite a bit heavier?
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      Yes, about 50%. So for the same amount of energy you need a larger and heavier battery. Typically the largest capacity Lithium Ion in 18650 format is roughly comparable to a 26650 LIFEPO4. And then there is still the voltage difference (nominally 3.2 for LIFEPO4 and 3.6 for Li-ion).
      - loeg 3y ago
        50% heavier is kind of a problem for E-Bike applications, although maybe not on the low end.
        getarofilter 3y ago
        [dead]
        jacquesm 3y ago
        Yes, it is, otoh on the weight of the whole bike it isn't a huge problem.
        loeg 3y ago
        > otoh on the weight of the whole bike it isn't a huge problem. Why do you say this? Non-ebikes can be sub-16 lbs; ebike battery packs can weigh, like, on the order of 50 lbs. Ebike users sometimes need to lift the bikes (up stairs at home, or on/off transit). Battery pack weight absolutely dominates the design and utility of ebikes; any double-digit percent factor is very relevant (IMO).
        jeffbee 3y ago
        > on the order of 50 lbs A really large e-bike battery is 4kg. Nobody is riding an e-bike with 50 pounds of batteries. Even the battery pack on a Zero FX, an electric motorcycle, is only 42 pounds.
        loeg 3y ago
        Huh, you're right. I wonder why the hell people are building 75 lb ebikes if even the large batteries are so light.
        jacquesm 3y ago
        That's because the motors are pretty heavy as well, and once you have that much torque available you'll need a frame and rear hub that can handle it too. My biggest e-bike is about 30Kg including a 2.2 KWh battery. Not quite 75 lb but getting there. The basic machine is a Riese&Mueller charger with a Bosch speed pedelec motor and the usual complement of brakes, gearing and bunch of bags. I don't mind the weight, but I've yet to find someone else that likes that bike. It's a bit of a pain to move around with the motor off but once you're on it and riding it's just like any other bike only more powerful and it lasts for a really long time on a single charge.

tecleandor 3y ago

Usually, the safer replacement for Lithium Ion would be LiFePO4. Although I don't know how good performs in e-bikes (I guess it should be fine, as they're used in cars and other stuff...)

jacquesm 3y ago
It works just fine for that application. But: it is a little bit more expensive for the same capacity, and unfortunately the voltage is a little bit lower so it isn't a drop-in replacement.
- Filligree 3y ago
  Isn't it also quite a bit heavier?
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Yes, about 50%. So for the same amount of energy you need a larger and heavier battery. Typically the largest capacity Lithium Ion in 18650 format is roughly comparable to a 26650 LIFEPO4. And then there is still the voltage difference (nominally 3.2 for LIFEPO4 and 3.6 for Li-ion).
    - loeg 3y ago
      50% heavier is kind of a problem for E-Bike applications, although maybe not on the low end.
      - getarofilter 3y ago
        [dead]
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        Yes, it is, otoh on the weight of the whole bike it isn't a huge problem.
        loeg 3y ago
        > otoh on the weight of the whole bike it isn't a huge problem. Why do you say this? Non-ebikes can be sub-16 lbs; ebike battery packs can weigh, like, on the order of 50 lbs. Ebike users sometimes need to lift the bikes (up stairs at home, or on/off transit). Battery pack weight absolutely dominates the design and utility of ebikes; any double-digit percent factor is very relevant (IMO).
        jeffbee 3y ago
        > on the order of 50 lbs A really large e-bike battery is 4kg. Nobody is riding an e-bike with 50 pounds of batteries. Even the battery pack on a Zero FX, an electric motorcycle, is only 42 pounds.
        loeg 3y ago
        Huh, you're right. I wonder why the hell people are building 75 lb ebikes if even the large batteries are so light.
        jacquesm 3y ago
        That's because the motors are pretty heavy as well, and once you have that much torque available you'll need a frame and rear hub that can handle it too. My biggest e-bike is about 30Kg including a 2.2 KWh battery. Not quite 75 lb but getting there. The basic machine is a Riese&Mueller charger with a Bosch speed pedelec motor and the usual complement of brakes, gearing and bunch of bags. I don't mind the weight, but I've yet to find someone else that likes that bike. It's a bit of a pain to move around with the motor off but once you're on it and riding it's just like any other bike only more powerful and it lasts for a really long time on a single charge.