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Elon posted a 44 minute live video of self-driving. In it the car tries to run a red light in the most clear situation possible: https://twitter.com/RealDanODow
by sschueller 3y ago
Elon posted a 44 minute live video of self-driving. In it the car tries to run a red light in the most clear situation possible: https://twitter.com/RealDanODowd/status/1695268712910348471 https://twitter.com/RealDanODowd/status/1695268712910348471
The excuse is that this firmware version is not available to the public. Yet Elon is driving in public with other drivers putting everyone at risk of death. At what point are we going to stop this lunacy?
- mholt 3y ago[flagged]
- baz00 3y agoAh an idiot. Now lets mathematically multiply idiot by non-determinism and see what happens? A safety critical system is not safe if the outcome of the operator and the system is unpredictable.
- aaomidi 3y agoIve come across this behavior probably once, and I recall it happening in a situation where it “didn’t matter much”. Other than deliberate situations, no one is passing a red light in a busy intersection like that. Even drunk drivers aren’t going to be passing through that intersection while it’s red.
- chollida1 3y agoYes, people make mistakes and cause accidents. We have the legal system so an injured party can sue the driver if they are injured or disabled. In this trial, all they are asking for is that the auto pilot manufacturer be held to the same standard. You cause an accident by manually driving, you are legally liable. You release auto pilot software that causes an accident, you are legally liable. Everyone should be responsible for their actions. Seems like a very reasonable standard to hold everyone to.
- monkeywork 3y ago>You cause an accident by manually driving, you are legally liable. >You release auto pilot software that causes an accident, you are legally liable. The human behind the wheel should always be the one liable unless it can be shown that the human attempted to take corrective action and the system for some reason overrode the human or wouldn't allow the correction and "forced" the accident.
- chollida1 3y agoFully disagree and thankfully for the rest of us you aren’t in charge of what the law says about this.
- monkeywork 3y agoAs someone who has operated aircraft, watercraft, motorcycles, and various other automobiles - end of the day if I'm the operator it's on ME to make sure it's in proper working order, that I'm familiar with how it works and how to react in an emergency, and to ensure that I'm attentive and operating it in a safe fashion. If I'm using assists it doesn't negate that responsibility. If you aren't willing to take on that responsibility perhaps you shouldn't be operating the vehicle.
- Ajedi32 3y ago[flagged]
- bboygravity 3y agoI'll still take Tesla FSD over the average earthling driver any day. That video does nothing to change that. Why should it?
- throwaway91999 3y ago[flagged]
- rhino369 3y agoWhat evidence exists that Tesla FSD is actually safer than an average driver?
- Karunamon 3y agoFirst party so some grains of salt are required, but they publish safety statistics. https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-fsd-beta-safety-crash-statistics/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-fsd-beta-safety-crash-statis... Both autopilot (basically lane-keeping) and FSD have multiple times higher miles driven between crashes than the US average.
- SmooL 3y agoThis is not a fair comparison - Tesla is comparing miles driven by their systems, which are inherently limited in scope to "easier" scenarios (only lane assist/only on highways/ect), against total US average, which includes _all_ gnarly road situations.
- redox99 3y agoIt is fair in the context of another driver being worried about being hurt by a Tesla.
- Karunamon 3y agoFrom the second link: As per the company, a Tesla with FSD Beta engaged experienced an airbag-deployed crash about every 3.2 million miles in the last 12 months. This makes the system about five times safer than the most recently available US average of 600,000 miles per police-reported crash. It should be noted that FSD Beta specifically works for inner-city streets, which involve tons of edge cases and unpredictable driving behaviors from other vehicles.
- tantalor 3y ago"this model has a small regression in the traffic lights" lol, if you knew about it, then why is it on the road?
- Karunamon 3y agoBecause testing this stuff in the real world is the only way. The human in the loop did exactly what they were supposed to do.
- manuelabeledo 3y agoThis is the equivalent to "let's test it in production, what could go wrong?". Also, why wouldn't they be able to test it in a simulator?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- lolinder 3y agoYou can't test it in a simulator because half of what you're testing is the interaction with the sensors. You can't simulate sensors with high enough fidelity to be meaningful. And this is more like a staging environment than it is production—production is when you put it in the hands of customers, this is an internal release available only to employees. I'm firmly opposed to FSD beta, but this video doesn't concern me at all.
- tantalor 3y ago> can't simulate sensors with high enough fidelity Why not? What's the limiting factor? Video bandwidth? We can run video games at 4k 60fps. Is that not enough?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
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- userbinator 3y agoYet Elon is driving Is he really driving if he isn't actually in control most of the time?
- ra7 3y agoIf he is in the driver's seat ready to intervene if something goes wrong, then he is in control.
- jprete 3y agoFor what it’s worth, at least this is the kind of brain fart screwup a novice driver would actually do. “Hmm, I was looking at the radio, that guy next to me is moving, I can’t quite see the light, it must be green.” (Source: I think I did do this once or twice.)
- holmesworcester 3y agoIt's funny to think that the cause of the bug could have been this actual mistake by actual humans sneaking through into their training data. One of the things they talk about in the video is the hoops they had to jump through to get the car to make a complete stop at stop signs, since almost no human drivers actually do that.
- devmor 3y agoI used to not do that either, used to just slow down a bit - until someone doing that hit me as a pedestrian. Now I stop every time.
- jacamera 3y agoIs there any mistake that a self-driving car could make that a novice (or any) human driver couldn't? I fail to see how this line of reasoning is relevant at all.
- lolinder 3y agoI'm one of the more vocal Tesla critics on here, but I think we can do better than this example. The left turn arrow turned green, the car inched forward a little, and Elon immediately put on the brakes. The situation was no more dangerous than when a human driver mistakes which light is theirs and does the same thing, which happens pretty regularly in my experience. And that this is a test version of the software isn't irrelevant, it makes a huge difference—I am much less opposed to internal company testers who know what they're doing than I am to a public beta in the hands of people who believe Tesla's (really egregious) marketing.
- causi 3y agoI am much less opposed to internal company testers who know what they're doing than I am to a public beta in the hands of people who believe Tesla's (really egregious) marketing Which category do you think Elon Musk is more likely to belong to?
- echelon 3y agoThe fervor over this is unwarranted. When cars first debuted, they were incredibly dangerous and killed lots of people. Yet we persisted. Airplanes, too. Fully autonomous cars are on the streets of San Francisco. They run into trouble, yet the experiment persists. We should allow for civil suits, especially when negligence is found, but the only way to progress forward is to make real world attempts. The promise of autonomous driving is worth trillions of dollars for all of the opportunity it will unlock. And as macabre as it may be, there will continue to be deaths along that development path.
- whiddershins 3y ago[flagged]
- swexbe 3y agoCars were not "incredibly dangerous" when they first debuted because they topped out at about 40 mph (and went considerably slower most of the time). That's pretty comparable to a horse and carraige.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- whoknew1122 3y agoI still don't understand how some people think it's reasonable that car malfunctions are hand waved away as "it's a beta." We're not talking about an Early Access game on Steam here. We're talking about death machines that weight thousands of pounds. Beta software shouldn't be on the road where other people can be impacted by it. Want to run into the back of a fire truck? Fine by me. Just do it on a track (and record it). I'll laugh from my computer chair rather than being potentially exposed to it on the road.
- ryandrake 3y agoCritically defective products routinely get handwaved away here with “Well, software has bugs, what can ya do?” As if that’s some law of physics.
- whoknew1122 3y ago100%. It feels as if some people can't turn off that SDE switch in their brain. If you have a bug in your microservice, fix it and deploy a new container. That doesn't work with actual bodies.
- jjoonathan 3y agoDoes Steam Early Access require an always-on camera that tracks your eye movement, warns if you look away, and locks you out if you ignore the warnings?
- whoknew1122 3y agoNo. It also doesn't run into fire trucks, killing the driver and hurting the first responders just trying to do their already dangerous job. Early Access also doesn't attempt to run a red light because 'cars are supposed to go straight' when they're taking a protected left hand turn.
- supertimor 3y agoTeslas monitoring system is about as effective as Oceangate’s continuous monitoring system. From one of the posts above. The monitoring system could not detect if a person was in the seat or not, and would autonomously drive with a giant teddy bear, a giant unicorn and a completely empty seat and repeatedly hit a moving object the size of a child. >Except for the part where they can not even detect trivial cases. One of the easiest possible cases, a giant teddy bear in the seat “holding” the wheel (by attaching a simple weight to the wheel), is determined to be a attentive driver [1]. A T-ball and they strike out. The inability to robustly solve simple, obvious cases and not failing safe is indicative of a sloppy development and validation process that is incompatible with the deployment of a safe safety-critical device. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPMoLmQgxTw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPMoLmQgxTw
- saberience 3y agoStop what lunacy? You realize thousands upon thousands of Americans are driving drunk every day? Or drive watching TikTok videos on their phone. How many car accidents do you think happen every week because humans are drunk or distracted? Elon had his hands on the steering wheel ready to make any intervention, this is hardly some crazy and dangerous testing going on. I would be far more worried about the average American driver than Elon testing the latest version of FSD. I’ve had an incident where a crazy guy fully stopped his car on the I5 fast-lane to LA trying to brake test me before getting out of his car to threaten me. I’m far more scared of people than I am of software.
- toomuchtodo 3y agoLots of excuses in this thread for the average humans (which is objectively low quality), but not the software that is actively improving. This is why we can’t have nice things. (have lost friends to both drunk and distracted drivers)
- Veserv 3y agoWhat? Elon was literally filming with the phone he was holding. He did not have his “hands on steering wheel ready to make any intervention”.
- saberience 3y agoIt won’t let you drive without both hands on the wheel.
- Veserv 3y ago1. False. https://youtu.be/Pb8b08TR760?si=1vmQAVCFxf6UuBSg https://youtu.be/Pb8b08TR760?si=1vmQAVCFxf6UuBSg 2. Elon mode. https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/20/23767041/tesla-hacker-elon-mode-hands-free-full-self-driving-autopilot https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/20/23767041/tesla-hacker-elo... 3. https://twitter.com/RealDanODowd/status/1687106791715573761 https://twitter.com/RealDanODowd/status/1687106791715573761 4. The video clearly shows no hands are on the wheel at various points when Elon lowers the camera in his hands or when making 90 degree turns so the side of the yoke is pointed up and visible with no hand on it. The video is literally direct video evidence that your claim is untrue and you have no idea what you are talking about.
- brandonagr2 3y agoEveryone alive everywhere is always at risk of death at anytime, your statement has no meaning. Are you trying to imply that a human driver monitoring a self driving system is somehow increasing the risk to others when its actually decreasing risk?
- paxys 3y agoA human driver 100% focused and ready to take over while an AI drives > a human driver 100% focused on the road driving by themselves >>>> a human driver who should be focused but trusts the AI and will not react in time if it messes up. The question is what % of drivers will fall under 1 vs 3?