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You might be surprised at just how much the old Greek stories and the Abrahamic ones cross over actually. For example, the story of a sheepherder who kills an
by kromem 3y ago
You might be surprised at just how much the old Greek stories and the Abrahamic ones cross over actually.
For example, the story of a sheepherder who kills an elite pre-Greek warrior with the cast of a stone. In the Bible you have David killing the sea person Goliath (though elsewhere it mentions another killed him, and some scholars think the story was reappropriated to the Davidic dynasty). In the Argonautica you have the story from the perspective of the people traveling the sea. Both stories take place after a prophet named Mopsus/Moses dies in the desert as wandering by foot back from a conflict in North Africa.
The recent finds of very early Iron Age Aegean style pottery made with local clay in Tel Dan is particularly interesting in this context, especially given the lead researcher's belief it strengthens an earlier theory that the Denyen sea peoples in Adana, Anatolia were the Biblical Dan who stayed on their ships in Judges 5, what's considered one of the oldest parts of the Bible. The Denyen/Hiyawa are also the people who had 8th century bilinguals claiming their ruling dynasty owed itself to a House of Mopsus' similar to how the tribe of Dan received Moses's descendent as priest (counter to rules elsewhere) in Judges 18.
Connections between Moses and Greek history didn't escape various Greek historians either. Atrapanus of Alexandria claimed Moses was the Argonautica figure Museus and taught Orpheus the mysteries. Hecataeus of Abdera claimed many different people came out of Egypt including Greek heros like the Phonecian Cadmus or the Lybian/Egyptian Danaus, brother to the Pharoh with 50 sons (Ramses II had either 48 or 50, and in his forensic report was identified as appearing to be a Lybian Berber).
You even have Odysseus telling of attending a one day battle against Egypt immediately after Troy which they lose and leads to a seven year captivity until "a certain Phrygian" shows up and tries to ransom him to the Lybians.
Sounds a lot like the battle of Ramses II's son Merneptah against the Lybian/sea peoples coalition that happened in a single day and seven years after which an usurper takes the throne, nicknamed Mose and allegedly putting into place very Phonecian sociopolitical changes.
There's so much more to the stories than I think most people might suspect. Even just the history of Troy, into the hands of the Mycenaean fleet in the late bronze age as demonstrated by the Hittites asking Aegean cooperation in handing over a fugitive that fled there, but then into Hittite hands until conquered again by a battle leaving an archeological mark in the early Iron Age.
The medieval Book of Jashar claimed Moses joined a 9 year siege to retake a city which had been stolen away from a king who eventually appoints him their leader.
A somewhat similar story to that of Eumolpus, put in the water as a babe, raised by another family until leaving North Africa to become appointed king of the Thracians (in the Troad during the time of the Trojan War per Strabo). Or Danaus, brother of Pharoh and appointed king of the Ahyawa upon arrival.
I suspect 'Homer' is a version of the history combining a Mycenaean catalogue of ships taking Anatolia in the LBA with a later siege of Hittite controlled Wilusa in the early Iron Age.
Herodotus's comments on Helen having been in Egypt when the Memphis temple of Astarte is built (18th dynasty) is particularly interesting with this consideration, as around the time of that conquest is when "beautiful woman who arrived" is in Egypt, married a Pharoh of the 18th dynasty, was the only woman ever depicted in the smiting pose, has 6 female children in a row (1% chance randomly), and during whose time Egypt is transformed into a solar cult where she communed with the god directly without her husband (so transgressive records of it were later defaced). And a woman whose only recorded relatives were a wetnurse and a sister, much like Helen with Theseus's mother and sister.
There too, how odd that Helen should share the same name as the twins Alexandra and Helens of Wilusa, both priest/priestesses of the sun god and twins. And then you have Helen kidnapped by Alexander.
I wonder at the survivorship biases that might occur if extraordinary events occured to a collection of different peoples. Like the twelve tribes of Anatolians captured by Egypt following the battle of Kadesh, one for each son with him.
Would those twelve tribes have stories about other groups? Or in their version of the tale would everyone be from their tribe, or claim to have been led by their ancestry?
What about the representations of the roles of women in the age of the Amazons? Would those stories pass through a filter of misogynistic intermediaries easily?
I suspect given a number of finds in just the past decade that our picture of this period of history is going to change quite a lot from what we currently think.
- goodbyesf 3y agoIt's more fundamental than that. The jewish god is just zeus stolen right out of greek mythology literally atop a mountain slinging lightning. Exodus 20:18 - "When the people heard the thunder and the loud blast of the ram’s horn, and when they saw the flashes of lightning and the smoke billowing from the mountain, they stood at a distance, trembling with fear." The twelve olympians from greek myth became the twelve tribes of israel with became the twelve disciples of christ. Noah's flood comes from the flood of gilgamesh. It's all stolen and reimagined myth.
- giraffe_lady 3y agoIIRC yahwism came from the canaanite polytheism and while that god is very similar to zeus it is actually a different and unrelated tradition. Similarly certain numbers and especially the flood theme recur across mythologies that are proven to be unconnected. You can't take even very clear similarities and use them alone to draw connections between traditions like that. In fact the allure and inevitable failure of this approach was at one point enough of a cliche that the reader's awareness of it is assumed for a major plot point in the novel middlemarch, written 150 years ago.
- basch 3y agoAnd arguably even imported from elsewhere into the Canaan stories. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenite_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenite_hypothesis
- mrangle 3y agoNone of it is "stolen", any more than the mythology of Zeus is stolen from Vedic tales. None of it is re-imagined, but re-articulated. If you are looking for evidence of a cultural crime, you haven't begun to get it with all due respect. This is about truth telling, not ownership of the truth. As always, the truth is always re-articulated across cultures. Generally, embedded in a manner that makes it maximally difficult for liars to corrupt it. Pointing at its articulation in various cultures as theft is, in fact, evidence that its defense system works.
- 3y ago