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When a job I'm interested in uses a language I haven't used before I say that I've learned a couple already and I'll quickly learn the next one. I'd generally s

When a job I'm interested in uses a language I haven't used before I say that I've learned a couple already and I'll quickly learn the next one. I'd generally say each additional language has been easier than the last. I've landed contracts to code in languages I didn't know and got positive feedback about my performance. Is there anything unique about Fortran that prevents experienced engineers from quickly learning it on the job?

reikonomusha 3y ago
The language itself? In broad strokes, not really. The typical tooling? Definitely yes, it's usually very HPC centric (MPI, OpenMP, batch job schedulers, ...).
- soco 3y ago
  I assume all this specialized tooling will be a hurdle in the learning process. It's not like you can spin up a docker image and hack on.
  - sampo 3y ago
    Perhaps in the future, learning how to run native binaries on bare metal, will be viewed as learning specialized tooling.
  - 8organicbits 3y ago
    I haven't used it, but shifter looks like an MLI on docker toolset. https://docs.nersc.gov/development/shifter/examples/ https://docs.nersc.gov/development/shifter/examples/
- 8organicbits 3y ago
  People are reasonably expected to learn k8s or React on the job, and those have a learning curve as well. Are MPI/OpenMPI much more difficult than those? I suppose that's a hard comparison to make. At first glance it doesn't look too crazy to me. https://www.eecis.udel.edu/~youse/openmpi/#/7 https://www.eecis.udel.edu/~youse/openmpi/#/7
  - mafuy 3y ago
    MPI is trivial to learn. CS students here are expected to use it for typical scientific tasks within a few hours of lessons. Complex use cases take some time to understand backgrounds (e.g. multi partition configurations, profiling, infiniband, ...) and it's possible to become a specialist, but that's very rarely needed. But MPI, in most use cases, comprises far less than React does, so it's not a fair comparison.
throwaway_woxx7 3y ago
> Is there anything unique about Fortran that prevents experienced engineers from quickly learning it on the job? No. I think that Fortran is a convenient scapegoat for LANL, not an actual obstacle. I discuss what I think the real problem is in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37292569 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37292569
sampo 3y ago
> Is there anything unique about Fortran that prevents experienced engineers from quickly learning it on the job? Perceived prestige, or rather the lack thereof. People with CS background often feel that learning Fortran is beneath them.
zoomablemind 3y ago
> ...prevents experienced engineers from quickly learning it on the job The problem is in the longevity of Fortran. The variety of codes accumulated through time makes up for more than one Fortran. Modern Fortran may appear as a new language, yet still very compatible with 'classic' Fortran. MPI adds another dimension to learning it, though there's tooling around it. The aspect of tolerance to single letter variables and cryptic function names could also be a factor, no kidding. In general, asking for prior experience with Fortran is reasonable, just as hiring someone to "quickly learn" C on the job is quite non-pragmatic.

reikonomusha 3y ago

The language itself? In broad strokes, not really. The typical tooling? Definitely yes, it's usually very HPC centric (MPI, OpenMP, batch job schedulers, ...).

soco 3y ago
I assume all this specialized tooling will be a hurdle in the learning process. It's not like you can spin up a docker image and hack on.
- sampo 3y ago
  Perhaps in the future, learning how to run native binaries on bare metal, will be viewed as learning specialized tooling.
- 8organicbits 3y ago
  I haven't used it, but shifter looks like an MLI on docker toolset. https://docs.nersc.gov/development/shifter/examples/ https://docs.nersc.gov/development/shifter/examples/
8organicbits 3y ago
People are reasonably expected to learn k8s or React on the job, and those have a learning curve as well. Are MPI/OpenMPI much more difficult than those? I suppose that's a hard comparison to make. At first glance it doesn't look too crazy to me. https://www.eecis.udel.edu/~youse/openmpi/#/7 https://www.eecis.udel.edu/~youse/openmpi/#/7
- mafuy 3y ago
  MPI is trivial to learn. CS students here are expected to use it for typical scientific tasks within a few hours of lessons. Complex use cases take some time to understand backgrounds (e.g. multi partition configurations, profiling, infiniband, ...) and it's possible to become a specialist, but that's very rarely needed. But MPI, in most use cases, comprises far less than React does, so it's not a fair comparison.

throwaway_woxx7 3y ago

> Is there anything unique about Fortran that prevents experienced engineers from quickly learning it on the job? No. I think that Fortran is a convenient scapegoat for LANL, not an actual obstacle. I discuss what I think the real problem is in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37292569 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37292569

sampo 3y ago

> Is there anything unique about Fortran that prevents experienced engineers from quickly learning it on the job? Perceived prestige, or rather the lack thereof. People with CS background often feel that learning Fortran is beneath them.

zoomablemind 3y ago

> ...prevents experienced engineers from quickly learning it on the job The problem is in the longevity of Fortran. The variety of codes accumulated through time makes up for more than one Fortran. Modern Fortran may appear as a new language, yet still very compatible with 'classic' Fortran. MPI adds another dimension to learning it, though there's tooling around it. The aspect of tolerance to single letter variables and cryptic function names could also be a factor, no kidding. In general, asking for prior experience with Fortran is reasonable, just as hiring someone to "quickly learn" C on the job is quite non-pragmatic.