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> How do you expect me to support something that has destroyed mine and others' mental health? I'm sorry to hear that you were hurt by psilocybin and other dru

> How do you expect me to support something that has destroyed mine and others' mental health? I'm sorry to hear that you were hurt by psilocybin and other drugs. Unfortunately I think a recreational drug culture is ill equipped to understand and manage the hazards of powerful hallucinogenics drugs, and that too many people are left with bad and even traumatic experiences. But doesn't this go both ways? How do you expect people who found a profound benefit from psilocybin not to discuss their experiences? I can understand advocating for caution, absolutely, but you're implying in your earlier comment that you believe they're deluding themselves. Why would your experience invalidate theirs?

bowsamic 3y ago
Because I personally believe that we should learn to live with our lives as the mind presents it to us instead of trying to fool ourselves into thinking our altered drug states give us some kind of deeper insight into reality, which they obviously don't. They disconnect us more from the universe and our own lives
- maxbond 3y ago
  It's far from obvious to me. Drugs have helped me to understand myself, the way my perception works, and the nature of reality. They've also helped me to manage my anxiety and depression. You can tell me that's an illusion, but you'd be mistaken. And how would you know whether my experiences were false? You couldn't possibly.
  - bowsamic 3y ago
    > Drugs have helped me to understand myself, the way my perception works, and the nature of reality. They haven't, you just think they have. There are real ways to gain such insight, but not through breaking your brain's pattern recognition capabilities. > They've also helped me to manage my anxiety and depression. Well, they are drugs. > You can tell me that's an illusion, but you'd be mistaken. What is an illusion and what isn't? I'm not saying you aren't having those experiences, I'm just saying that they are not actually related to some biological element of yourself, such as you living a human life. Psychedelics breaks our pattern recognition, sense data starts to get interpreted in different ways and we see, hear, and feel sense data in a different way. They just fuzz up the control system of your brain. While it's true that your normal experiences are not somehow "less illusory" than those drug experiences, it is true that they are a more accurate model of external reality. Your mind is constantly refreshing its own model of reality, according to received inputs. Psychedelics totally mess up your model of reality. The problem is that now you are attaching to this messed up model of reality as somehow real and insightful. It's not, it's just what happens when your brain isn't functioning properly.
    - maxbond 3y ago
      It's very strange to me to hear a Buddhist argue that I should forgo something which eases my suffering and advances my spiritual practice because of my biology! Also very strange to hear a Buddhist proclaim they not only understand reality, but reality from my perspective. I'm not a Buddhist, but I've been studying Zen lately (though I understand you may subscribe to a different interpretation), and this really flies in the face of everything I've learned. There's only one person in this world who gets to decide whether my brain is functioning properly, and whether my understanding of reality is advancing my material and spiritual goals. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to determine who that person is.
      - bowsamic 3y ago
        > It's very strange to me to hear a Buddhist argue that I should forgo something which eases my suffering and advances my spiritual practice because of my biology! Also very strange to hear a Buddhist proclaim they not only understand reality, but reality from my perspective. I'm not a Buddhist, but I've been studying Zen lately (though I understand you may subscribe to a different interpretation), and this really flies in the face of everything I've learned. Well, Buddhism is very strictly anti-drug compared to any other religion that I know of. Of course, Buddhism would argue that it isn't easing your suffering but is actually increasing your ignorance and your likelihood of creating bad karma, leading to a worse rebirth in the future. It is more likely to be reborn in a hell realm if you are on drugs than if you have a clear mind through mindfulness and concentration. If you train mindfulness and good ethics then you can achieve a heavenly rebirth or even eventually exit samsara. Btw, I trained in Soto Zen under an ordained, authorised teacher. Drugs are considered a hinderance, that's why alcohol is a violation of the precepts. > There's only one person in this world who gets to decide whether my brain is functioning properly, and whether my understanding of reality is advancing my material and spiritual goals. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to determine who that person is. Here's a hint: it's not you, since you are, according to Buddhism, an ignorant, deluded being. Those aren't even terms to be rude, those are the technical terms we use. A vast majority of beings are not in a position to judge whether their understanding of reality is materially or spiritually beneficial, because they lack insight.
- imiric 3y ago
  The synapses in your brain change anytime you experience, learn or remember something. Your "natural" mind changes with time, and mind-altering substances can do the same thing in shorter time spans. Whether you want to experience this or not is up to you, but you're wrong by thinking that others are fooling themselves. Some people do gain deeper insights of themselves and reality, while others merely do it for recreation. Neither "disconnects us more from the universe"—quite the contrary.
  - bowsamic 3y ago
    Okay but the brain exists to provide an accurate model of reality. Changing it so as not to do so and then thinking that new model is "real" is fooling yourself. > Some people do gain deeper insights of themselves and reality No they don't. Literally anyone who thinks they do is "deluded" (in the Buddhist technical sense)
    - imiric 3y ago
      > Okay but the brain exists to provide an accurate model of reality. There's no such thing. Reality is subjective for everyone who experiences it, as our senses dictate how we perceive it. The model of reality we agree with is a general overlap of our collective senses, and is not any more "real" than the one experienced when under the influence of mind-altering substances. And this is fine. The way we all experience life is different, but claiming one way is "real" and the other "delusional" is a mistake.
      - bowsamic 3y ago
        > There's no such thing. Reality is subjective for everyone who experiences it, as our senses dictate how we perceive it. The model of reality we agree with is a general overlap of our collective senses, and is not any more "real" than the one experienced when under the influence of mind-altering substances. I honestly think it's a cope to assert that there aren't really existing objects out there. The best you can do is a Hegelian argument, i.e. that everything is undetermined without a pure concept or language, but that doesn't really tell us whether or not there is "stuff" out there. Here's a question for you: do you think that there was no universe before sentient beings started to see it? Your argument here would mean you should answer "yes"

bowsamic 3y ago

Because I personally believe that we should learn to live with our lives as the mind presents it to us instead of trying to fool ourselves into thinking our altered drug states give us some kind of deeper insight into reality, which they obviously don't. They disconnect us more from the universe and our own lives

maxbond 3y ago
It's far from obvious to me. Drugs have helped me to understand myself, the way my perception works, and the nature of reality. They've also helped me to manage my anxiety and depression. You can tell me that's an illusion, but you'd be mistaken. And how would you know whether my experiences were false? You couldn't possibly.
- bowsamic 3y ago
  > Drugs have helped me to understand myself, the way my perception works, and the nature of reality. They haven't, you just think they have. There are real ways to gain such insight, but not through breaking your brain's pattern recognition capabilities. > They've also helped me to manage my anxiety and depression. Well, they are drugs. > You can tell me that's an illusion, but you'd be mistaken. What is an illusion and what isn't? I'm not saying you aren't having those experiences, I'm just saying that they are not actually related to some biological element of yourself, such as you living a human life. Psychedelics breaks our pattern recognition, sense data starts to get interpreted in different ways and we see, hear, and feel sense data in a different way. They just fuzz up the control system of your brain. While it's true that your normal experiences are not somehow "less illusory" than those drug experiences, it is true that they are a more accurate model of external reality. Your mind is constantly refreshing its own model of reality, according to received inputs. Psychedelics totally mess up your model of reality. The problem is that now you are attaching to this messed up model of reality as somehow real and insightful. It's not, it's just what happens when your brain isn't functioning properly.
  - maxbond 3y ago
    It's very strange to me to hear a Buddhist argue that I should forgo something which eases my suffering and advances my spiritual practice because of my biology! Also very strange to hear a Buddhist proclaim they not only understand reality, but reality from my perspective. I'm not a Buddhist, but I've been studying Zen lately (though I understand you may subscribe to a different interpretation), and this really flies in the face of everything I've learned. There's only one person in this world who gets to decide whether my brain is functioning properly, and whether my understanding of reality is advancing my material and spiritual goals. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to determine who that person is.
    - bowsamic 3y ago
      > It's very strange to me to hear a Buddhist argue that I should forgo something which eases my suffering and advances my spiritual practice because of my biology! Also very strange to hear a Buddhist proclaim they not only understand reality, but reality from my perspective. I'm not a Buddhist, but I've been studying Zen lately (though I understand you may subscribe to a different interpretation), and this really flies in the face of everything I've learned. Well, Buddhism is very strictly anti-drug compared to any other religion that I know of. Of course, Buddhism would argue that it isn't easing your suffering but is actually increasing your ignorance and your likelihood of creating bad karma, leading to a worse rebirth in the future. It is more likely to be reborn in a hell realm if you are on drugs than if you have a clear mind through mindfulness and concentration. If you train mindfulness and good ethics then you can achieve a heavenly rebirth or even eventually exit samsara. Btw, I trained in Soto Zen under an ordained, authorised teacher. Drugs are considered a hinderance, that's why alcohol is a violation of the precepts. > There's only one person in this world who gets to decide whether my brain is functioning properly, and whether my understanding of reality is advancing my material and spiritual goals. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to determine who that person is. Here's a hint: it's not you, since you are, according to Buddhism, an ignorant, deluded being. Those aren't even terms to be rude, those are the technical terms we use. A vast majority of beings are not in a position to judge whether their understanding of reality is materially or spiritually beneficial, because they lack insight.
imiric 3y ago
The synapses in your brain change anytime you experience, learn or remember something. Your "natural" mind changes with time, and mind-altering substances can do the same thing in shorter time spans. Whether you want to experience this or not is up to you, but you're wrong by thinking that others are fooling themselves. Some people do gain deeper insights of themselves and reality, while others merely do it for recreation. Neither "disconnects us more from the universe"—quite the contrary.
- bowsamic 3y ago
  Okay but the brain exists to provide an accurate model of reality. Changing it so as not to do so and then thinking that new model is "real" is fooling yourself. > Some people do gain deeper insights of themselves and reality No they don't. Literally anyone who thinks they do is "deluded" (in the Buddhist technical sense)
  - imiric 3y ago
    > Okay but the brain exists to provide an accurate model of reality. There's no such thing. Reality is subjective for everyone who experiences it, as our senses dictate how we perceive it. The model of reality we agree with is a general overlap of our collective senses, and is not any more "real" than the one experienced when under the influence of mind-altering substances. And this is fine. The way we all experience life is different, but claiming one way is "real" and the other "delusional" is a mistake.
    - bowsamic 3y ago
      > There's no such thing. Reality is subjective for everyone who experiences it, as our senses dictate how we perceive it. The model of reality we agree with is a general overlap of our collective senses, and is not any more "real" than the one experienced when under the influence of mind-altering substances. I honestly think it's a cope to assert that there aren't really existing objects out there. The best you can do is a Hegelian argument, i.e. that everything is undetermined without a pure concept or language, but that doesn't really tell us whether or not there is "stuff" out there. Here's a question for you: do you think that there was no universe before sentient beings started to see it? Your argument here would mean you should answer "yes"