5 ms·

A Uyghur mother pleaded for her detained son. Now she’s missing, too

24 points by nxten 3y ago

Garvi 3y ago
I'm hearing about this genocide on the Uighur people, yet cannot figure out how many people have gotten killed in this genocide? I'm finding conflicting results from millions to "no one of course, it's not that kind of genocide". From what I can research it's one German professor Adrian Zens, that is the sole source for all the Uighur genocide claims. And when pressed on his sources, he says he just reads official Chinese press statements, but he "reads between the lines". Encouraging. Is there any real evidence or is this just it? Is the claim that "everybody is in agreement" enough to persuade the majority of people of any nonsense? From what I can tell the Uighur people in reeducation camps are the islamic fighters returning from Afghanistan. The kinds of people the US locks up in Guantanamo Bay. Also most sources seem to state that the Uighurs aren't getting killed per-se, but rather that their culture is being wiped out. And here I was thinking we were all in agreement that extreme islamism is a culture worthy of wiping out. No?
- tompagenet2 3y ago
  I'm going to assume best intentions despite your snark. This is certainly not one person making up stuff. Sterilisation is not in any world acceptable to be forced on people. Nor is rape. Here's one decent and disturbing article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-55794071 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-55794071
  - Garvi 3y ago
    Even your implication that I have ulterior motives shows the sad state of public debate on such topics. I am also curious as to what you perceived as "snark"? I have now fully read the article. Two Chinese US citizens claim they have escaped China where they were tortured for having too many babies. An alleged ex-guard corroborates their story, but cannot prove he was ever actually a guard. This case does seem like completely devoid of any proof. Are you seriously claiming this is sufficient evidence for genocide? But before anyone bites my head off for asking questions, please define genocide for me as you understand the word. It's extremely unclear what people are talking about in this case, as it continues to seem that no one claims any deaths.
    - wddkcs 3y ago
      The Uighur genocide and other hugely determinant ambiguous events are endemic to modern life. It almost seems like a feature than a bug. There are so many iterations of this same phenomena- some hugely impactful moral question is poised, but the basic facts are never clearly established, just the allegations. Was Epstein controlling global elites with sex trafficking? Did the CIA kill JFK? Are aliens real and on Earth? Are there DNA targeted bioweapons in Ukraine? Is China genociding the Uighur? All of these questions are of huge moral import, but seemingly unanswerable. Rather, the fact that officials could answer them definitively, but do not, makes it appear as if the answer is 'yes'. However, I think the point of the questions themselves isn't to establish truth. Instead, the implications of the questions themselves further control, whatever the answer is. Either the CIA really did kill JFK, or they want the question to remain open, to increase the perception of their power. Either way, they don't want the question answered, they want it open. Your question about the status of the Uighurs is rational and earnest, but the question itself might be purely instrumental for governmental control. That's why there's always commenters that will abuse the request for proof. The reality isn't the point, the point is to angry at China.
      - senttoschool 3y ago
        >The reality isn't the point, the point is to angry at China. Only because the mass media have used anti-China sentiments to generate clicks and fear and politicians have fed on that to acquire votes. The fact that we can't have a honest, fact based discussion about China, even on HN, is sad. Let's just be angry at China because "China" is literally what you're suggesting.
        yorwba 3y ago
        Is your username a reference to the claim that there were no mass arrests in Xinjiang, people were simply sent to school to learn useful job skills?
        senttoschool 3y ago
        Let's not ignore the fact that Muslim Uyghur were/are causing terrorist acts on innocent people. This never gets brought up for some reason. China has to deal with domestic Islamic extremists. It deals with it by mass re-education camps. This idea isn't unpopular in the West and if Western governments could muster up the will power, they'd do it too. At least it's far better than going to war, like what the US has mostly done against Islamic extremists. The west labels these camps as genocide to paint it as "China bad". Nothing is ever black and white. PS. Don't use personal attacks. You don't know me. I don't know you.
- yorwba 3y ago
  > the Uighur people in reeducation camps are the islamic fighters returning from Afghanistan How many fighters do you think there were? > he says he just reads official Chinese press statements, but he "reads between the lines". Encouraging. Yes, it's a great technique. For example, the government didn't publish arrest statistics for 2017, but did publish them for 2013-2017 in aggregate, so by reading between the lines and subtracting the numbers of previous years, one can infer the magnitude of the wave of mass arrests in 2017 in Xinjiang (227882 people, 21% of all arrests in China) https://web.archive.org/web/20180725042225/https://www.nchrd.org/2018/07/criminal-arrests-in-xinjiang-account-for-21-of-chinas-total-in-2017/ https://web.archive.org/web/20180725042225/https://www.nchrd... (Incidentally, the group of researchers here doesn't include Zenz. Lots of people can do this kind of analysis of public information. But if you want more of the same, reading Zenz' articles and the sources he cites is a good start.)
  - Garvi 3y ago
    Reading between the lines of official Chinese government statements is a great technique for finding secret dirt (like a genocide) on the Chinese government. Do you stand behind this statement you just made? > How many fighters do you think there were? I too read Zens stating there are millions in reeducation camps. You're using circular logic. > the group of researchers here doesn't include Zenz What group of researchers? If there's so many, you shouldn't have trouble naming someone besides Zens.
    - yorwba 3y ago
      > Do you stand behind this statement you just made? I stand behind the statements I made and went to the trouble to provide you with an easily checked example, but it seems you ignored it completely? Did you overlook the archive.org link? > I too read Zens stating there are millions in reeducation camps. I was asking you how many fighters you think there were. If you believe that everyone arrested was a fighter, and also Zenz' claim that millions were arrested, that implies you think there were millions of fighters. On the other hand, it doesn't seem like you believe him, so you probably think the number of fighters is less. So how many were there? But my point was that you don't have to believe Zenz, you can just skim his writing for links to citations and read those instead. > You're using circular logic. Where is the cycle in my reasoning? > What group of researchers? If there's so many, you shouldn't have trouble naming someone besides Zens. If you read the article I linked, you wouldn't have trouble finding the list of names at the end: Renee Xia, Victor Clemens, Frances Eve
- tamimio 3y ago
  Reposting a previous post with some articles you might want to read “Uyghur have concentration camps built for them in the last 5 years [1], women were sterilized [2] cultural destruction and forced labor [3] or rape [4] or even selling their organs like hair [5] or tracking Uyghur outside China [6]” [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037.amp https://xjdp.aspi.org.au/ https://xjdp.aspi.org.au/ [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-53220713 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-53220713 [3] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/nz0g306v8c/china-tainted-cotton https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/nz0g306v8c/china-tainted-co... [4] https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/genocide-select-committee-03242023125434.html/ampRFA https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/genocide-select-comm... https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/6/4/uighur-tribunal-hears-evidence-of-alleged-china-abuses https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/6/4/uighur-tribunal-hear... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-5579407 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-5579407 [5] https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/02/us/china-hair-uyghur-cpb-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/02/us/china-hair-uyghur-cpb-trnd... [6] https://time.com/6160282/arab-world-complicit-china-repression-uighurs/ https://time.com/6160282/arab-world-complicit-china-repressi...

24 points by nxten 3y ago

I'm hearing about this genocide on the Uighur people, yet cannot figure out how many people have gotten killed in this genocide? I'm finding conflicting results from millions to "no one of course, it's not that kind of genocide". From what I can research it's one German professor Adrian Zens, that is the sole source for all the Uighur genocide claims. And when pressed on his sources, he says he just reads official Chinese press statements, but he "reads between the lines". Encouraging. Is there any real evidence or is this just it? Is the claim that "everybody is in agreement" enough to persuade the majority of people of any nonsense? From what I can tell the Uighur people in reeducation camps are the islamic fighters returning from Afghanistan. The kinds of people the US locks up in Guantanamo Bay. Also most sources seem to state that the Uighurs aren't getting killed per-se, but rather that their culture is being wiped out. And here I was thinking we were all in agreement that extreme islamism is a culture worthy of wiping out. No?

tompagenet2 3y ago
I'm going to assume best intentions despite your snark. This is certainly not one person making up stuff. Sterilisation is not in any world acceptable to be forced on people. Nor is rape. Here's one decent and disturbing article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-55794071 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-55794071
- Garvi 3y ago
  Even your implication that I have ulterior motives shows the sad state of public debate on such topics. I am also curious as to what you perceived as "snark"? I have now fully read the article. Two Chinese US citizens claim they have escaped China where they were tortured for having too many babies. An alleged ex-guard corroborates their story, but cannot prove he was ever actually a guard. This case does seem like completely devoid of any proof. Are you seriously claiming this is sufficient evidence for genocide? But before anyone bites my head off for asking questions, please define genocide for me as you understand the word. It's extremely unclear what people are talking about in this case, as it continues to seem that no one claims any deaths.
  - wddkcs 3y ago
    The Uighur genocide and other hugely determinant ambiguous events are endemic to modern life. It almost seems like a feature than a bug. There are so many iterations of this same phenomena- some hugely impactful moral question is poised, but the basic facts are never clearly established, just the allegations. Was Epstein controlling global elites with sex trafficking? Did the CIA kill JFK? Are aliens real and on Earth? Are there DNA targeted bioweapons in Ukraine? Is China genociding the Uighur? All of these questions are of huge moral import, but seemingly unanswerable. Rather, the fact that officials could answer them definitively, but do not, makes it appear as if the answer is 'yes'. However, I think the point of the questions themselves isn't to establish truth. Instead, the implications of the questions themselves further control, whatever the answer is. Either the CIA really did kill JFK, or they want the question to remain open, to increase the perception of their power. Either way, they don't want the question answered, they want it open. Your question about the status of the Uighurs is rational and earnest, but the question itself might be purely instrumental for governmental control. That's why there's always commenters that will abuse the request for proof. The reality isn't the point, the point is to angry at China.
    - senttoschool 3y ago
      >The reality isn't the point, the point is to angry at China. Only because the mass media have used anti-China sentiments to generate clicks and fear and politicians have fed on that to acquire votes. The fact that we can't have a honest, fact based discussion about China, even on HN, is sad. Let's just be angry at China because "China" is literally what you're suggesting.
      - yorwba 3y ago
        Is your username a reference to the claim that there were no mass arrests in Xinjiang, people were simply sent to school to learn useful job skills?
        senttoschool 3y ago
        Let's not ignore the fact that Muslim Uyghur were/are causing terrorist acts on innocent people. This never gets brought up for some reason. China has to deal with domestic Islamic extremists. It deals with it by mass re-education camps. This idea isn't unpopular in the West and if Western governments could muster up the will power, they'd do it too. At least it's far better than going to war, like what the US has mostly done against Islamic extremists. The west labels these camps as genocide to paint it as "China bad". Nothing is ever black and white. PS. Don't use personal attacks. You don't know me. I don't know you.
yorwba 3y ago
> the Uighur people in reeducation camps are the islamic fighters returning from Afghanistan How many fighters do you think there were? > he says he just reads official Chinese press statements, but he "reads between the lines". Encouraging. Yes, it's a great technique. For example, the government didn't publish arrest statistics for 2017, but did publish them for 2013-2017 in aggregate, so by reading between the lines and subtracting the numbers of previous years, one can infer the magnitude of the wave of mass arrests in 2017 in Xinjiang (227882 people, 21% of all arrests in China) https://web.archive.org/web/20180725042225/https://www.nchrd.org/2018/07/criminal-arrests-in-xinjiang-account-for-21-of-chinas-total-in-2017/ https://web.archive.org/web/20180725042225/https://www.nchrd... (Incidentally, the group of researchers here doesn't include Zenz. Lots of people can do this kind of analysis of public information. But if you want more of the same, reading Zenz' articles and the sources he cites is a good start.)
- Garvi 3y ago
  Reading between the lines of official Chinese government statements is a great technique for finding secret dirt (like a genocide) on the Chinese government. Do you stand behind this statement you just made? > How many fighters do you think there were? I too read Zens stating there are millions in reeducation camps. You're using circular logic. > the group of researchers here doesn't include Zenz What group of researchers? If there's so many, you shouldn't have trouble naming someone besides Zens.
  - yorwba 3y ago
    > Do you stand behind this statement you just made? I stand behind the statements I made and went to the trouble to provide you with an easily checked example, but it seems you ignored it completely? Did you overlook the archive.org link? > I too read Zens stating there are millions in reeducation camps. I was asking you how many fighters you think there were. If you believe that everyone arrested was a fighter, and also Zenz' claim that millions were arrested, that implies you think there were millions of fighters. On the other hand, it doesn't seem like you believe him, so you probably think the number of fighters is less. So how many were there? But my point was that you don't have to believe Zenz, you can just skim his writing for links to citations and read those instead. > You're using circular logic. Where is the cycle in my reasoning? > What group of researchers? If there's so many, you shouldn't have trouble naming someone besides Zens. If you read the article I linked, you wouldn't have trouble finding the list of names at the end: Renee Xia, Victor Clemens, Frances Eve
tamimio 3y ago
Reposting a previous post with some articles you might want to read “Uyghur have concentration camps built for them in the last 5 years [1], women were sterilized [2] cultural destruction and forced labor [3] or rape [4] or even selling their organs like hair [5] or tracking Uyghur outside China [6]” [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037.amp https://xjdp.aspi.org.au/ https://xjdp.aspi.org.au/ [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-53220713 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-53220713 [3] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/nz0g306v8c/china-tainted-cotton https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/nz0g306v8c/china-tainted-co... [4] https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/genocide-select-committee-03242023125434.html/ampRFA https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/genocide-select-comm... https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/6/4/uighur-tribunal-hears-evidence-of-alleged-china-abuses https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/6/4/uighur-tribunal-hear... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-5579407 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-5579407 [5] https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/02/us/china-hair-uyghur-cpb-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/02/us/china-hair-uyghur-cpb-trnd... [6] https://time.com/6160282/arab-world-complicit-china-repression-uighurs/ https://time.com/6160282/arab-world-complicit-china-repressi...