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It is no worse than the voting system being used to beat people down that don't subscribe to the dogmatic view of the world HN readers do. In fact, this is almo

by zer8k 3y ago

It is no worse than the voting system being used to beat people down that don't subscribe to the dogmatic view of the world HN readers do. In fact, this is almost better, because at least people will continue to see a dissenting post. At worse it functions as a third party shadow ban. HN already shadow bans, so again, it's no worse. New users in particular are forced into making ideologically aligned posts in order to get enough karma to avoid the insta-shadowban new accounts can get. No different if you're trying to play the game with this stupid plugin. I do not understand the idolization of HN as some bastion of spirited debate and nuance. It is objectively no better than Reddit and subject to the same hivemind mentality. If you want legitimate spirited debate and can learn to ignore trolls removing the voting system would bring HN closer to the fantasy it's readers seem to believe it is. Unfortunately taking away internet points from the terminally online is akin to making an addict go cold turkey. It wouldn't end well.

pipeline_peak 3y ago
> I do not understand the idolization of HN as some bastion of spirited debate and nuance. HN is the closest thing there is to a news aggregator with civil, open discussions. If there’s one closer, I’d love to know.
- krapp 3y ago
  Many well moderated technical forums like /r/AskHistorians are not only civil and open, but have a higher degree of technical and intellectual merit related to the subject at hand, by virtue of being more focused. On HN you can expect at least median technical competence when the subject is web development, but beyond that (and definitely with non-tech related subjects) people tend to be "aggressively ignorant" to the point that you can tell who the few actually knowledgeable people are by how angry they are at everyone else.
  - pipeline_peak 3y ago
    > news aggregator I'm talking about overall, by average, not subreddit
    - krapp 3y ago
      Reddit also has more high quality comments on average than Hacker News, simply due to its greater size and volume.
      - pipeline_peak 3y ago
        I’ve been there pretty frequently for a long time, I’d have to disagree.
hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
> If you want legitimate spirited debate and can learn to ignore trolls removing the voting system would bring HN closer to the fantasy it's readers seem to believe it is. You're free to turn on the "showdead" setting to read comments that have been heavily downvoted or flagged. I had it turned on for a while, and then turned it off after confirming to myself "yep, didn't miss a thing".
- zer8k 3y ago
  I'm now at -4 score on this post. I find it funny that regularly you hear people specifically avoid calling this place a "social network" or "reddit-like". It's a wonderful ode to the dunning-kruger no-coder. There's an implication of pseudo-intellectual superiority in this community that can only be described as the merger of terminally online redditors and big tech. A meta-criticism of the fundamental scoring behavior of this website is met with downvotes and out of the 5 I've received I've gotten 2 comments. Neither explicitly countering my point, and none of them providing the "spirited debate" OP suggests exists here. The website is a hivemind. Period. Absolutely hilarious. Sometimes points demonstrate themselves. At least slashdot required you to have modpoints. Power tripping terminally online crybullies dominate every website scored by points.
  - ahahahahah 3y ago
    > downvotes and out of the 5 I've received I've gotten 2 comments. You've certainly gotten more than 5.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
maxbond 3y ago
A month ago I responded to a similar comment of yours[1] pointing out that people were downvoting you for being insulting, not because they disagreed with you. Glancing at your comment history it seems like you are still regularly very aggressive and insulting to the people you engage with. I think you're mistaking ideology for culture. Lots of people here are aligned with you ideologically. But the culture here is to discourage people from being rude and insulting through the use of downvotes and flags. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36982152 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36982152
- godelski 3y ago
  I'll second this. I downvoted the comment not because of a strong disagreement to its main thesis, but rather the aggressiveness and that it brings oversimplification to the matter rather than incorporating more nuance in the discussion. I just detest those that lump everything together as if we can compartmentalize things into neat little boxes rather than acknowledging the messiness and complexity that is the world we live in. I often downvote people I agree with who similarly oversimplify. Interestingly this can sometimes lead to fights as any response is often taken as opposition. But I similarly often upvote points I disagree with, when I find the arguments are good and bring up points I was missing. These actually tend to turn into the best conversations and are a main part of what keeps me coming to this website. People vote for many different reasons. A vote is an aggregate of many different metrics. It's likely unsurprising that this leads to misinterpretation of the metric.
  - ahahahahah 3y ago
    > that it brings oversimplification to the matter rather than incorporating more nuance in the discussion Do you then also downvote all the insipid claims of HN superiority that, at best, have similar oversimplification?
    - godelski 3y ago
      Frequently, yes, but I'm only one man. I'm not scrolling through every comment looking for these because I'm not hyper obsessed. And I can never downvote replies to my own comments even if they are attempting to make lazy "gotchas" checking for inconsistency that are so common of humans, realistically only looking to validate their own predisposition rather than recognizing that the expectation placed on the question is exceptionally high and nearly impossible unless properly contextualized. Those aren't really adding to conversations so much as they are masturbation. Frankly, I don't enjoy when people masturbate in public. But yeah, when I see them, I do just downvote and move on. Sometimes comment. Depends on my mood ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

by zer8k 3y ago

pipeline_peak 3y ago

> I do not understand the idolization of HN as some bastion of spirited debate and nuance. HN is the closest thing there is to a news aggregator with civil, open discussions. If there’s one closer, I’d love to know.

krapp 3y ago
Many well moderated technical forums like /r/AskHistorians are not only civil and open, but have a higher degree of technical and intellectual merit related to the subject at hand, by virtue of being more focused. On HN you can expect at least median technical competence when the subject is web development, but beyond that (and definitely with non-tech related subjects) people tend to be "aggressively ignorant" to the point that you can tell who the few actually knowledgeable people are by how angry they are at everyone else.
- pipeline_peak 3y ago
  > news aggregator I'm talking about overall, by average, not subreddit
  - krapp 3y ago
    Reddit also has more high quality comments on average than Hacker News, simply due to its greater size and volume.
    - pipeline_peak 3y ago
      I’ve been there pretty frequently for a long time, I’d have to disagree.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago

> If you want legitimate spirited debate and can learn to ignore trolls removing the voting system would bring HN closer to the fantasy it's readers seem to believe it is. You're free to turn on the "showdead" setting to read comments that have been heavily downvoted or flagged. I had it turned on for a while, and then turned it off after confirming to myself "yep, didn't miss a thing".

zer8k 3y ago
I'm now at -4 score on this post. I find it funny that regularly you hear people specifically avoid calling this place a "social network" or "reddit-like". It's a wonderful ode to the dunning-kruger no-coder. There's an implication of pseudo-intellectual superiority in this community that can only be described as the merger of terminally online redditors and big tech. A meta-criticism of the fundamental scoring behavior of this website is met with downvotes and out of the 5 I've received I've gotten 2 comments. Neither explicitly countering my point, and none of them providing the "spirited debate" OP suggests exists here. The website is a hivemind. Period. Absolutely hilarious. Sometimes points demonstrate themselves. At least slashdot required you to have modpoints. Power tripping terminally online crybullies dominate every website scored by points.
- ahahahahah 3y ago
  > downvotes and out of the 5 I've received I've gotten 2 comments. You've certainly gotten more than 5.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

maxbond 3y ago

A month ago I responded to a similar comment of yours[1] pointing out that people were downvoting you for being insulting, not because they disagreed with you. Glancing at your comment history it seems like you are still regularly very aggressive and insulting to the people you engage with. I think you're mistaking ideology for culture. Lots of people here are aligned with you ideologically. But the culture here is to discourage people from being rude and insulting through the use of downvotes and flags. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36982152 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36982152

godelski 3y ago
I'll second this. I downvoted the comment not because of a strong disagreement to its main thesis, but rather the aggressiveness and that it brings oversimplification to the matter rather than incorporating more nuance in the discussion. I just detest those that lump everything together as if we can compartmentalize things into neat little boxes rather than acknowledging the messiness and complexity that is the world we live in. I often downvote people I agree with who similarly oversimplify. Interestingly this can sometimes lead to fights as any response is often taken as opposition. But I similarly often upvote points I disagree with, when I find the arguments are good and bring up points I was missing. These actually tend to turn into the best conversations and are a main part of what keeps me coming to this website. People vote for many different reasons. A vote is an aggregate of many different metrics. It's likely unsurprising that this leads to misinterpretation of the metric.
- ahahahahah 3y ago
  > that it brings oversimplification to the matter rather than incorporating more nuance in the discussion Do you then also downvote all the insipid claims of HN superiority that, at best, have similar oversimplification?
  - godelski 3y ago
    Frequently, yes, but I'm only one man. I'm not scrolling through every comment looking for these because I'm not hyper obsessed. And I can never downvote replies to my own comments even if they are attempting to make lazy "gotchas" checking for inconsistency that are so common of humans, realistically only looking to validate their own predisposition rather than recognizing that the expectation placed on the question is exceptionally high and nearly impossible unless properly contextualized. Those aren't really adding to conversations so much as they are masturbation. Frankly, I don't enjoy when people masturbate in public. But yeah, when I see them, I do just downvote and move on. Sometimes comment. Depends on my mood ¯\_(ツ)_/¯