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I happily work the 90 minutes I’d spend commuting because I’m not paying for gas, maintenance and endangering my life being on the road. Never going back to an

by kmbfjr 3y ago

I happily work the 90 minutes I’d spend commuting because I’m not paying for gas, maintenance and endangering my life being on the road. Never going back to an office. The world changed during lockdowns, and in this way, it changed for the better.

RamblingCTO 3y ago
I feel like this view is very US-centric and due to bad city design. Surely shutting our doors and getting ever more isolated at home isn't the next step in society?
- omgmajk 3y ago
  Working from home does not mean being isolated, the two aren't the same. Being isolated from the office and spending less time on travel means that you have more time to spend on friends and hobbies.
  - RamblingCTO 3y ago
    They aren't in theory. In practice they are. Look at trends across the board when it comes to close relationships. The workplace was always a connection point for many. It will be no more. You're reduced to a cog in the system giving your expected output and that's it. Congratulations, very nice! You know, if we redesigned work and society for something more meaningful, the debate about office/WFH wouldn't even be one.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      > You're reduced to a cog in the system giving your expected output and that's it. This is no more or less true whether you're working in an office or at home.
      - RamblingCTO 3y ago
        Yes, you're right. But as a CTO I can tell you that it makes a difference if I see someone in the office on a regular basis and another employee that I see maybe once a year. We're human after all, built on relationships and social webbing. So I fear that WFH results in faceless work being done by "somebody" "somewhere". I do care about the social aspect of my work/colleagues quite a lot! We'll see how it plays out I guess.
        JohnFen 3y ago
        It's certainly different, and everything comes with its benefits and drawbacks. Including working in an office and working at home. Personally, I work better -- both in terms of work output and in terms of socializing with my teammates -- when working at home, because cube farms are almost designed to prevent effective work and interaction (although they are far more conducive to both of those things than open office layouts!) At home, I'm more effective and in a better mood so I more easily socialize with my coworkers. Other people can be very different, of course, including the exact opposite of me. I think a lot of this also depends on what level you're looking at it from and what size of a company you're talking about. For instance, whether working from home or working in an office, you interact heavily with your teammates and are certainly not a faceless "somebody somewhere". If you're at home, though, you probably are to higher levels of management. Whether or not that's a problem for you (the lower-level employee) depends in large part on what sort of career path you are trying to chart. For my own path, it makes no difference because I'm not aiming for promotions or the like -- I took the job I have because that's the job I wanted. Small companies tend to be more social/cozy in general. WFH may adversely impact that. It might not, though. I've worked at several small companies over the decades where nobody was ever in the same room, but the socialization with each other was still very high. Large companies are a different beast entirely. In the office or not, you are a faceless cog in the machine to everyone except those you directly work with and directly report to. It's hard to see how it could be any other way, given the scales involved.
        RamblingCTO 3y ago
        I think you hit the nail on the head. I'm with a startup of < 20 FTEs. It's really hard to create identity and a sense of belonging with an internationally distributed team. We actually also allow WFH for local employees and kind of a "we need to see individually what works best". I think that works for employees, but for me sometimes it doesn't. I'd attribute that to a rather young and inexperienced environment. WFH often times means less communication and productivity. But not for all! I agree very hard on large companies! Nothing I ever want to work with/at.
- pseudocomposer 3y ago
  Long-term, more people WFH means more businesses will develop closer to where people live, instead of over-expensive downtowns, gradually correcting the bad city design we have in the US and improving walkability everywhere. This effect is already apparent in the cities of my metro (the Research Triangle area of NC).
- gedy 3y ago
  > Surely shutting our doors and getting ever more isolated at home isn't the next step in society? Honestly, the US has seen neighborhoods turn into bedroom communities over past 50 years with parents both working, sending kids off to daycare, etc. We are more isolated and lonely than ever. I think we've optimized for working enough, maybe our local neighborhoods would benefit from people being around too.
  - RamblingCTO 3y ago
    I agree with your first point! And on your second point: yes, maybe. It's time we reorganize society for reconnection. But I don't see that happening any time soon!
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  I have never had more and fuller human connection than I do now, several years into working from home. I'm deeply embedded in my neighborhood community, spend hours a week with family, have grown real and lasting bonds with the children growing up around me and the elders who remember this place differently, developed strong relationships within my religious community. None of this stuff was possible on a nights-and-weekends-only basis, WFH is what enables it. The cost of being less connected to my coworkers is one I am happy to pay for it.
  - RamblingCTO 3y ago
    If you look at society-wide trends you're in the minority.
    - giraffe_lady 3y ago
      Because I have a job that can be done from home, and the worker power to bargain for that? Yes.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      I don't think we have enough historical data to know how WFH affects these trends, though. My observations of people I know are that WFH improves all of this. Working from home seems to increase the amount of socialization with friends and neighbors.
      - RamblingCTO 3y ago
        I'm actually really glad for you! I guess it heavily depends on the neighbourhood/city/culture you live in.
- Kon-Peki 3y ago
  > I feel like this view is very US-centric and due to bad city design You can no longer say "US-Centric" and "bad city design" together. Here is an analysis published right at the start of the pandemic that shows how different large cities are reorganizing themselves [1]. You can't cluster them by geography or political ideology (look at map 2). The above analysis shows that Minneapolis, the subject of this discussion, as being in the top 10 large cities with "downtown" residential growth over the last 40 years. This article [2], published just two weeks ago, shows that the trend is continuing and may even be increasing. The business owners are either being chosen for their willingness to say what the journalist wants them to say, or are clueless. It doesn't matter if Target is bringing workers back into their office. The gain in the number of people living near the Target office is larger than the number of people that would work in the Target office. These businesses need to adapt - they have more potential customers if they focus on residents instead of office workers. [1] https://www.brookings.edu/articles/big-city-downtowns-are-booming-but-can-their-momentum-outlast-the-coronavirus/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/big-city-downtowns-are-bo... [2] https://archive.is/GDz6S https://archive.is/GDz6S
  - RamblingCTO 3y ago
    Well, I don't live in the US, but I got the picture that a lot of your problems over there are caused by zoning and car-centric design. Mixed usage of a space and such. Not sure how much depends on the state tho! To be fair, I see the same issues in Frankfurt/Germany as well. Here's to hoping people actually so something sensible with that. Office floors are empty. Restaurants are dying. Designated shopping streets are dying. Stuff like that. Most of it because of bad economics of the shops. I agree on the original article being BS tho.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      > Not sure how much depends on the state tho! It varies by state quite a lot (as most things do).

by kmbfjr 3y ago

RamblingCTO 3y ago

I feel like this view is very US-centric and due to bad city design. Surely shutting our doors and getting ever more isolated at home isn't the next step in society?

omgmajk 3y ago
Working from home does not mean being isolated, the two aren't the same. Being isolated from the office and spending less time on travel means that you have more time to spend on friends and hobbies.
- RamblingCTO 3y ago
  They aren't in theory. In practice they are. Look at trends across the board when it comes to close relationships. The workplace was always a connection point for many. It will be no more. You're reduced to a cog in the system giving your expected output and that's it. Congratulations, very nice! You know, if we redesigned work and society for something more meaningful, the debate about office/WFH wouldn't even be one.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > You're reduced to a cog in the system giving your expected output and that's it. This is no more or less true whether you're working in an office or at home.
    - RamblingCTO 3y ago
      Yes, you're right. But as a CTO I can tell you that it makes a difference if I see someone in the office on a regular basis and another employee that I see maybe once a year. We're human after all, built on relationships and social webbing. So I fear that WFH results in faceless work being done by "somebody" "somewhere". I do care about the social aspect of my work/colleagues quite a lot! We'll see how it plays out I guess.
      - JohnFen 3y ago
        It's certainly different, and everything comes with its benefits and drawbacks. Including working in an office and working at home. Personally, I work better -- both in terms of work output and in terms of socializing with my teammates -- when working at home, because cube farms are almost designed to prevent effective work and interaction (although they are far more conducive to both of those things than open office layouts!) At home, I'm more effective and in a better mood so I more easily socialize with my coworkers. Other people can be very different, of course, including the exact opposite of me. I think a lot of this also depends on what level you're looking at it from and what size of a company you're talking about. For instance, whether working from home or working in an office, you interact heavily with your teammates and are certainly not a faceless "somebody somewhere". If you're at home, though, you probably are to higher levels of management. Whether or not that's a problem for you (the lower-level employee) depends in large part on what sort of career path you are trying to chart. For my own path, it makes no difference because I'm not aiming for promotions or the like -- I took the job I have because that's the job I wanted. Small companies tend to be more social/cozy in general. WFH may adversely impact that. It might not, though. I've worked at several small companies over the decades where nobody was ever in the same room, but the socialization with each other was still very high. Large companies are a different beast entirely. In the office or not, you are a faceless cog in the machine to everyone except those you directly work with and directly report to. It's hard to see how it could be any other way, given the scales involved.
        RamblingCTO 3y ago
        I think you hit the nail on the head. I'm with a startup of < 20 FTEs. It's really hard to create identity and a sense of belonging with an internationally distributed team. We actually also allow WFH for local employees and kind of a "we need to see individually what works best". I think that works for employees, but for me sometimes it doesn't. I'd attribute that to a rather young and inexperienced environment. WFH often times means less communication and productivity. But not for all! I agree very hard on large companies! Nothing I ever want to work with/at.
pseudocomposer 3y ago
Long-term, more people WFH means more businesses will develop closer to where people live, instead of over-expensive downtowns, gradually correcting the bad city design we have in the US and improving walkability everywhere. This effect is already apparent in the cities of my metro (the Research Triangle area of NC).
gedy 3y ago
> Surely shutting our doors and getting ever more isolated at home isn't the next step in society? Honestly, the US has seen neighborhoods turn into bedroom communities over past 50 years with parents both working, sending kids off to daycare, etc. We are more isolated and lonely than ever. I think we've optimized for working enough, maybe our local neighborhoods would benefit from people being around too.
- RamblingCTO 3y ago
  I agree with your first point! And on your second point: yes, maybe. It's time we reorganize society for reconnection. But I don't see that happening any time soon!
giraffe_lady 3y ago
I have never had more and fuller human connection than I do now, several years into working from home. I'm deeply embedded in my neighborhood community, spend hours a week with family, have grown real and lasting bonds with the children growing up around me and the elders who remember this place differently, developed strong relationships within my religious community. None of this stuff was possible on a nights-and-weekends-only basis, WFH is what enables it. The cost of being less connected to my coworkers is one I am happy to pay for it.
- RamblingCTO 3y ago
  If you look at society-wide trends you're in the minority.
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    Because I have a job that can be done from home, and the worker power to bargain for that? Yes.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    I don't think we have enough historical data to know how WFH affects these trends, though. My observations of people I know are that WFH improves all of this. Working from home seems to increase the amount of socialization with friends and neighbors.
    - RamblingCTO 3y ago
      I'm actually really glad for you! I guess it heavily depends on the neighbourhood/city/culture you live in.
Kon-Peki 3y ago
> I feel like this view is very US-centric and due to bad city design You can no longer say "US-Centric" and "bad city design" together. Here is an analysis published right at the start of the pandemic that shows how different large cities are reorganizing themselves [1]. You can't cluster them by geography or political ideology (look at map 2). The above analysis shows that Minneapolis, the subject of this discussion, as being in the top 10 large cities with "downtown" residential growth over the last 40 years. This article [2], published just two weeks ago, shows that the trend is continuing and may even be increasing. The business owners are either being chosen for their willingness to say what the journalist wants them to say, or are clueless. It doesn't matter if Target is bringing workers back into their office. The gain in the number of people living near the Target office is larger than the number of people that would work in the Target office. These businesses need to adapt - they have more potential customers if they focus on residents instead of office workers. [1] https://www.brookings.edu/articles/big-city-downtowns-are-booming-but-can-their-momentum-outlast-the-coronavirus/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/big-city-downtowns-are-bo... [2] https://archive.is/GDz6S https://archive.is/GDz6S
- RamblingCTO 3y ago
  Well, I don't live in the US, but I got the picture that a lot of your problems over there are caused by zoning and car-centric design. Mixed usage of a space and such. Not sure how much depends on the state tho! To be fair, I see the same issues in Frankfurt/Germany as well. Here's to hoping people actually so something sensible with that. Office floors are empty. Restaurants are dying. Designated shopping streets are dying. Stuff like that. Most of it because of bad economics of the shops. I agree on the original article being BS tho.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > Not sure how much depends on the state tho! It varies by state quite a lot (as most things do).