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> I'm writing a book about it :) That doesn't answer the question... what makes it thoughtless? For that matter, what makes a small urban apartment worse (or b

> I'm writing a book about it :) That doesn't answer the question... what makes it thoughtless? For that matter, what makes a small urban apartment worse (or better) than a home in an abandoned village? I was certainly happier and had a better time balancing my budget living in a small apartment in Japan than trying to find out how to budget to live in north america. > > (up to a certain point) > That's incorrect [...] the most efficient cities are around 50-200k in population So we agree on the fundamental, you just define the turnover point as 50-200k. I think it is inseparably tied with density - a city of 2million might be the turning point in a land constrained country like Japan, but I wouldn't be surprised in the breakeven in a suburban sprawly north american city is in the 100-200k range you mention. > If you use the number of municipal workers per capita as a proxy, This is a poor proxy. Capital budgets might be better, or ratio between median taxation and median income. > After that, you're starting to need transit, zoning, and all other stuff. Without breaking down what categories the employees work in, that's a poor comparison. Boise and NYC both have transit, zoning, etc so that alone doesn't make any difference. But for example car ownership rates are dramatically lower in NYC. If it's $2000 extra in taxes to pay for the transit drivers in NYC, but a household has an average 1 car instead of 3, then the NYC residents come out way ahead in terms of budget. Additionally, you mention zoning - most of the smallest municipalities in the US have much more restrictive zoning than cities in Japan. > For example, NYC [...] Boise [...] Can you provide some Japanese examples, since we're talking about Japan?

cyberax 3y ago
> That doesn't answer the question... what makes it thoughtless? Have you ever heard anybody discussing the downsides of densification? Pretty much _everything_ has upsides and downsides (yes, including sparse cities). But if you listen to "urbanists", then it will seem like humans should be sliced, diced, and restacked into a Human Cube. While wild animals will frolic and dance outside the walls of the Dense City. With absolutely no downsides whatsoever. This is what makes it "thoughtless". > I was certainly happier and had a better time balancing my budget living in a small apartment in Japan than trying to find out how to budget to live in north america. Now imagine living in a small apartment in a suburban location. For about 1/5-th of the price of a Tokyo apartment. > I think it is inseparably tied with density - a city of 2million might be the turning point in a land constrained country like Japan We're seeing that Japan is not so land-constrained, as it literally has houses sitting empty. > This is a poor proxy. Capital budgets might be better, or ratio between median taxation and median income. I tried that, but I gave up. First, the data is a mess. Second, even for several cities where I decided to dig in, it gives even _worse_ results. Third, a lot of capital funding happens through the Federal grants in larger cities, and it's not clear how to account for it. > Boise and NYC both have transit, zoning, etc so that alone doesn't make any difference Boise barely has zoning and transit, so it doesn't need a lot of employees. It doesn't have (or need) a subway. And to give you a perspective, one mile of Manhattan subway costs about as much as 1000 miles of a modern 6-lane freeway. > Additionally, you mention zoning - most of the smallest municipalities in the US have much more restrictive zoning than cities in Japan. Ironically, the only large metro location without zoning in the USA is the Greater Houston Area. The lack of zoning allowed it to build an extremely successful car-oriented city, that has commutes that are FASTER than in any large European city (or Tokyo, for that matter).

cyberax 3y ago

> That doesn't answer the question... what makes it thoughtless? Have you ever heard anybody discussing the downsides of densification? Pretty much _everything_ has upsides and downsides (yes, including sparse cities). But if you listen to "urbanists", then it will seem like humans should be sliced, diced, and restacked into a Human Cube. While wild animals will frolic and dance outside the walls of the Dense City. With absolutely no downsides whatsoever. This is what makes it "thoughtless". > I was certainly happier and had a better time balancing my budget living in a small apartment in Japan than trying to find out how to budget to live in north america. Now imagine living in a small apartment in a suburban location. For about 1/5-th of the price of a Tokyo apartment. > I think it is inseparably tied with density - a city of 2million might be the turning point in a land constrained country like Japan We're seeing that Japan is not so land-constrained, as it literally has houses sitting empty. > This is a poor proxy. Capital budgets might be better, or ratio between median taxation and median income. I tried that, but I gave up. First, the data is a mess. Second, even for several cities where I decided to dig in, it gives even _worse_ results. Third, a lot of capital funding happens through the Federal grants in larger cities, and it's not clear how to account for it. > Boise and NYC both have transit, zoning, etc so that alone doesn't make any difference Boise barely has zoning and transit, so it doesn't need a lot of employees. It doesn't have (or need) a subway. And to give you a perspective, one mile of Manhattan subway costs about as much as 1000 miles of a modern 6-lane freeway. > Additionally, you mention zoning - most of the smallest municipalities in the US have much more restrictive zoning than cities in Japan. Ironically, the only large metro location without zoning in the USA is the Greater Houston Area. The lack of zoning allowed it to build an extremely successful car-oriented city, that has commutes that are FASTER than in any large European city (or Tokyo, for that matter).