5 ms·

Low wages result in economic stagnation. Just compare California to Germany for an example. Here in Germany, we have unions that put job security above all else

Low wages result in economic stagnation. Just compare California to Germany for an example. Here in Germany, we have unions that put job security above all else including wages. And employers that offer job security as a perk rather than offering higher wages. Result: an over burdened middle class, little innovation and a stagnant economy.

prettywoman 3y ago
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asdff 3y ago
One can even just look at California itself to make this example as there are very high levels of inequality there. You certainly see compensation rise astronomically in some industries in California and an overall increase of state GDP, but at the same time, other industries do not see such rises in lock step with inflation brought on by more fortunate groups, and as a result the working class are severely rent burdened and lack a means to save or pay down debt. Its like there are two economies. There is the economy about large numbers, GDPs, market caps, stock option compensation packages, increasing real estate returns. Then there is the real world economy. People selling elote on the street. People working in convenience stores. People driving pickup trucks full of tools. People looking for the cheapest rent they can find. People going to night school at a community college. It seems that the former is only able to grow so much at the expense of keeping it out of the hands of the latter.
runnerup 3y ago
16% of Germans[0] and 16% of Californians[1] are in a union. 7% of Mississippians[2] are in a union. Mississippi vs. California is also interesting. Mississippi has far less participation in unions (7% vs 16%) and much less regulation for employers to follow. Overall Mississippi looks like one of the best places in the USA for employers in terms of an accommodating regulatory environment. However, personal outcomes in Mississippi are languishing compared to even Germany! Let alone compared to California. You chose an interesting two geographies to compare/contrast. It looks like 16-17% of Californians are in a union. It also looks like 16-17% of Germans are in a union. Perhaps it’s not the degree of union participation which drives differences in economic opportunity between these regions! 0: https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=TUD https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=TUD 1: https://www.bls.gov/regions/west/news-release/unionmembership_california.htm#:~:text=In%202022%2C%20union%20members%20accounted,of%20Labor%20Statistics%20reported%20today https://www.bls.gov/regions/west/news-release/unionmembershi.... 2: https://stacker.com/mississippi/see-how-much-mississippis-workforce-unionized https://stacker.com/mississippi/see-how-much-mississippis-wo...
- jntvjnvutnuvt 3y ago
  Mississippi, being the poorest state in the union, is as rich as Germany (GDP/capita).
  - runnerup 3y ago
    Median income in Germany was $32,133 the most recent year for which OECD has data (2019)[0]. Median income in Mississippi was $24,509 in 2019[1]. Mississippi uses an unusual amount of slave labor (legally, of course) to generate that GDP with fully 1% of their population in prisons. Personally, having spent time in both Mississippi and Germany, I think quality of life is higher is Mississippi for some people, and it is higher in Germany for other people. If you are wealthy enough to own land, get medical care out of state, and enjoy semi-rural living (it has some decent city life but if you like that there are better places to live), Mississippi offers a lot. If you like great schools and walkable cities, Germany can be pretty great, though it helps greatly to learn the language. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income#cite_note-3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income#cite_note-3 1: https://datacommons.org/place/geoId/28/?utm_medium=explore&mprop=income&popt=Person&cpv=age,Years15Onwards&hl=en https://datacommons.org/place/geoId/28/?utm_medium=explore&m...
    - jntvjnvutnuvt 3y ago
      GDP/capita typically measures economic wealth and is typically used to compared economies. "Median income" does not account for cost of living which can explain how Mississippi can have a higher quality of life despite a lower median income.
      - runnerup 3y ago
        > GDP/capita typically measures economic wealth and is typically used to compared economies. I believed that the top level comment of 'mustafa_pasi was more focused on the effects of unions on employee outcomes, rather than on national-level outcomes. So I chose to continue that. Perhaps I was wrong. If we're asking the question: "Should I, as a selfish individual, support increasing unionization?" we can come to a different conclusion than "Should I, as a massively powerful national leader entrusted with the perpetuation of my nation and its ability to deal with existential threats, support increasing unionization?" > "Median income" does not account for cost of living. In this case it does, as the numbers I gave been adjusted for purchasing power parity.
candiddevmike 3y ago
Germany's innovation issues stem from its ingrained love for growing bureaucracies more so than unions IMO

prettywoman 3y ago

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asdff 3y ago

One can even just look at California itself to make this example as there are very high levels of inequality there. You certainly see compensation rise astronomically in some industries in California and an overall increase of state GDP, but at the same time, other industries do not see such rises in lock step with inflation brought on by more fortunate groups, and as a result the working class are severely rent burdened and lack a means to save or pay down debt. Its like there are two economies. There is the economy about large numbers, GDPs, market caps, stock option compensation packages, increasing real estate returns. Then there is the real world economy. People selling elote on the street. People working in convenience stores. People driving pickup trucks full of tools. People looking for the cheapest rent they can find. People going to night school at a community college. It seems that the former is only able to grow so much at the expense of keeping it out of the hands of the latter.

runnerup 3y ago

16% of Germans[0] and 16% of Californians[1] are in a union. 7% of Mississippians[2] are in a union. Mississippi vs. California is also interesting. Mississippi has far less participation in unions (7% vs 16%) and much less regulation for employers to follow. Overall Mississippi looks like one of the best places in the USA for employers in terms of an accommodating regulatory environment. However, personal outcomes in Mississippi are languishing compared to even Germany! Let alone compared to California. You chose an interesting two geographies to compare/contrast. It looks like 16-17% of Californians are in a union. It also looks like 16-17% of Germans are in a union. Perhaps it’s not the degree of union participation which drives differences in economic opportunity between these regions! 0: https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=TUD https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=TUD 1: https://www.bls.gov/regions/west/news-release/unionmembership_california.htm#:~:text=In%202022%2C%20union%20members%20accounted,of%20Labor%20Statistics%20reported%20today https://www.bls.gov/regions/west/news-release/unionmembershi.... 2: https://stacker.com/mississippi/see-how-much-mississippis-workforce-unionized https://stacker.com/mississippi/see-how-much-mississippis-wo...

jntvjnvutnuvt 3y ago
Mississippi, being the poorest state in the union, is as rich as Germany (GDP/capita).
- runnerup 3y ago
  Median income in Germany was $32,133 the most recent year for which OECD has data (2019)[0]. Median income in Mississippi was $24,509 in 2019[1]. Mississippi uses an unusual amount of slave labor (legally, of course) to generate that GDP with fully 1% of their population in prisons. Personally, having spent time in both Mississippi and Germany, I think quality of life is higher is Mississippi for some people, and it is higher in Germany for other people. If you are wealthy enough to own land, get medical care out of state, and enjoy semi-rural living (it has some decent city life but if you like that there are better places to live), Mississippi offers a lot. If you like great schools and walkable cities, Germany can be pretty great, though it helps greatly to learn the language. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income#cite_note-3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income#cite_note-3 1: https://datacommons.org/place/geoId/28/?utm_medium=explore&mprop=income&popt=Person&cpv=age,Years15Onwards&hl=en https://datacommons.org/place/geoId/28/?utm_medium=explore&m...
  - jntvjnvutnuvt 3y ago
    GDP/capita typically measures economic wealth and is typically used to compared economies. "Median income" does not account for cost of living which can explain how Mississippi can have a higher quality of life despite a lower median income.
    - runnerup 3y ago
      > GDP/capita typically measures economic wealth and is typically used to compared economies. I believed that the top level comment of 'mustafa_pasi was more focused on the effects of unions on employee outcomes, rather than on national-level outcomes. So I chose to continue that. Perhaps I was wrong. If we're asking the question: "Should I, as a selfish individual, support increasing unionization?" we can come to a different conclusion than "Should I, as a massively powerful national leader entrusted with the perpetuation of my nation and its ability to deal with existential threats, support increasing unionization?" > "Median income" does not account for cost of living. In this case it does, as the numbers I gave been adjusted for purchasing power parity.

candiddevmike 3y ago

Germany's innovation issues stem from its ingrained love for growing bureaucracies more so than unions IMO