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Labor unions are pushing hard for better pay and hours – and winning
- deprecative 3y agoI'm so happy for folks who have unions and have gained benefits. I know that in the Software Engineering space we think we're all ninja elite 100x rockstar developers and we don't want to get benefits.
- VirusNewbie 3y agoI’m going to go down fighting keeping unions out of software. It’s the hill i’ll gladly die on. You’re welcome to go work at a software union shop, like Boeing. Writing low quality software that kills people, great job security even if you are at fault for peanut pay. I’ll take my non union job any day.
- mmole 3y agoThis was definitely written by Jeff Bezos on a burner account
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- deprecative 3y agoThat's fine, you can want to be treated like shit if you like it. I know I'd greatly prefer not being under draconian rules and getting things like OT pay so that when I'm forced to work 80-hour weeks I actually benefit from it. You do you.
- sparrish 3y ago[flagged]
- VirusNewbie 3y agoLol ok buddy. I guess i'm 'treated like shit' since I have to work 45 hours a week for my free coffee, food, massages, and large stock comp just so I can afford my giant house and tesla.
- deprecative 3y agoBoss gave you two Oreos instead of one and you think you're hot shit despite them taking thousands. Makes sense bucko.
- VirusNewbie 3y agoI’m comparing my job to union jobs in software. You think unions are the answer. I know they aren’t. What does my boss’s paycheck have to do with my argument? How does your comment convince me i’m not way better off than you and other union NPCs?
- deprecative 3y agoOh, you're that kind of intellectually vapid person who says "NPCs". We're done here. Enjoy life.
- asdff 3y agoNothing like beating on the airplane to make your point, otherwise known as a mode of travel statistically safer than even merely walking.
- p1necone 3y agoI agree with your point, but there's a nit I like to pick when the statistics of airline safety comes up. Comparing safety by deaths/injuries per distance travelled between different modes of transport does not make sense to me. To prove the point imagine some hypothetical mode of travel that can take us to the nearest star - alpha centauri. Now imagine that 50% of people that travel via this mode of transport die, thats obviously not a risk anybody would be willing to take right? But if you use the same statistics as we use for aircraft safety it looks amazing, better than anything else by far. Am I saying that aircraft are unsafe? Not at all - they're still very safe relative to other modes of transport, but the statistics that we commonly calculate to compare them seem totally meaningless to me. Comparing deaths per distance travelled only makes any sense when comparing modes of travel that actually go similar distances. I also acknowledge that this is somewhat of a regional nitpick - it makes a lot more sense to compare aircraft with e.g. cars in the United States because taking an aircraft vs taking a car to travel between different states is actually a choice that many people are making. Whereas I live in a small country where there's very little overlap between aircraft trips and car trips.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- miffy900 3y ago> You’re welcome to go work at a software union shop, like Boeing. > Writing low quality software that kills people, great job security even if you are at fault for peanut pay. I’ll take my non union job any day. Boeing primarily manufactures and designs airplanes. The odds of dying while being a passenger on an airplane is about 1 in 200,000. Compare that to being a cyclist, which is 1 in 3,500. Or a pedestrian which is 1 in 485. https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/how-safe-is-flying-heres-what-the-statistics-say/knzczab06 https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/how-safe-is-flying-heres... Putting your stupendously bad comparison aside, I'd say most software devs/programmers don't really need to unionise, aside from video game devs. 80+ hour work weeks, constant burn out, consistently underpaid compared to most other devs who just program boring line of business apps; they just get treated very poorly.
- whatshisface 3y agoEngineers have always walked a fine line between labor and capital because while on one hand they own nothing and do not manage anybody, they are also individually valued and work directly within (in a sense being at the core of) the planning functions of companies.
- lapcat 3y agoIf you can get laid off, then you're not capital.
- whatshisface 3y agoManagers generally aren't part of unions because their job is to represent the interests of capital. I didn't invent it that's just how it has been for a hundred years.
- lapcat 3y agoCEOs have their own union, but they're called boards of directors. :-) They sit around deciding each other's compensation and giving each other golden parachutes.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- ydlr 3y agoAllowing supervisors to be fired for union activity is one of the most insidious parts of the Taft-Hartley Act. It has been very effective in creating disunity among workers -- which most managers definitely are.
- nvm0n2 3y agoBut anyone can get laid off. CEOs get fired all the time, self employed contractors get fired from contracts. So then nobody is "capital". This is correct: the distinction between workers and capital doesn't exist outside of Marxist theory. We are all workers, and when we join or form companies, we are uniting.
- chasd00 3y ago> we don't want to get benefits. Software engineers are the most coddled bunch out there. Our benefits are so far beyond the pale it’s embarrassing.
- cm2012 3y agoSeriously, like big tech has like 6 month standard paternity packages now. Try getting that at any other career in the USA.
- deprecative 3y agoMost developers don't work for big tech. Y'all in that SV bubble.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- throwaway914 3y agoI have a pretty awful view of this: In the less complex jobs, they struggle to get things like paternity leave and time off. We have those. We should be looking at those ridiculous things we think we don't deserve and organizing to get them. We could be a leading example for the industries that come behind us. Paid time off is common in softwareland. Let's make it mandatory "you must take 4 weeks off minimum a year". We know "unlimited time off" is a guilt-tripping farce. If 1 software dev can add billions of dollars of value to a company, we should be getting these ridiculous things. These things that seem like coddling us. Maybe even a formula for "if i added x% profit, I deserve y% of that" I think hollywood is ahead of us on compensation formulas imo.
- hakfoo 3y agoWe can't do Hollywood style compensation because we rely on actually functional computers which are obviously incapable of Hollywood math. More seriously, we need to make sure the entire team is getting the goodies. Even your fairy-tale 1000x developers depend on good ops/infrastructure, support and QA and clever management; if they can only hire on McStaff warm bodies, they're massively hobbling those "ridiculously compensated" devs.
- mym1990 3y agoIn 2022 only about 12% of those employed in the US were part of a union...so you are pretty far off from being the only one not 'gaining benefits'.
- deprecative 3y agoI never claimed exclusivity in being treated poorly as labor.
- bontaq 3y agoThe part I've been trying to explain to coworkers is that the union isn't just for software engineers at the company, but for the support staff as well. We have it good but I have seen support and sales staff get bullied pretty hard. Sure you might not even get a raise with a union, but perhaps those same benefits of remote work when needed, unlimited vacation, and an hour lunch can be extended to every worker at the company. The most expensive workers teaming up with the least expensive to give them more power is a good thing, I think.
- gochi 3y agoFunny enough, that's probably the worst way to convince engineers due to the belief that is rooted in this field which is both rockstar qualities and a false sense of security due to companies (so far) overpaying to reduce talent pools. So bringing up support staff and sales usually results in the mindset that they should just switch fields. Instead talk about sports unions, like the NFL Player Association, and that usually gets them re-evaluating all they've been previously understanding about unions.
- ThrowawayR2 3y agoFunny how proponents have to talk about sports or actors' unions to sell developer unionization because we aren't sports players or screen actors. Try talking about what actual engineering unions do instead, like the SPEEA. (Frankly, I can't think of any unions of engineering professions aside from the SPEEA in the US and I couldn't find any in a casual Google search. Anyone know of any? And if there aren't any, well, people might want to think really hard about why.)
- deprecative 3y ago> And if there aren't any, well, people might want to think really hard about why. The Conservative's demonization of unions for the last several decades seems to have worked quite well.
- nvm0n2 3y agoAnd I've seen support and sales staff bully software engineers, often for being too white or male for their liking. So they should unionize on our behalf, for fairness and justice?
- lapcat 3y agoSoftware engineers often have a strange attitude, thinking they don't need unions, when pro athletes who make $millions per year all have unions. There's a myth that with unions, everyone will make the same compensation, but that's not even remotely true in pro sports. The reason to have a union is that no matter how much money you make, the owners of the business have more money and power. Collective bargaining is a counterweight to the power of ownership. And it's not just about money, it's about working conditions. For example, labor unions could fight back against back-to-the-office demands, whereas without a union, employees are forced to individually consent or lose their job.
- toldyouso2022 3y agoA union turns into a guild fast. I don't want programming to be monopoly of people with a degree, slave to the cartel's rule, programming is a human right and it must remain absolutely free! A programmers union is too dangerous in this world, especially in these times
- tomlockwood 3y agoWhat evidence is there that unions turn into guilds? There were more guilds in preindustrial times and modern unions haven't become guilds.
- unshavedyak 3y agoI view unions like i view government. It's possible, sometimes likely, that a government becomes a horrid entity for control over people. However. Governments, and perhaps Unions, are by definition (correct me if i'm wrong?) an entity that is by the people and for the people. Some for-profit company or individual has no ethical obligation to treat workers correctly, fairly, etc. So if we remove unions and government, what power do individual people have? To that idea then, people need a gov/union to have a voice - but govs and unions also need to be built with an extreme attention to oversight. Which we usually fail to implement correctly. Nevertheless it's the only tool we have - to give individuals power by distributing agreement. So to me the question isn't for or against gov/union, but rather how we can build them to scale and last. Especially in the face of pressure to corrupt. Happy to hear opinions on where this is wrong, though.
- amaunions 3y ago[dead]
- whatshisface 3y agoI can't help but wonder how much of this is "better" and how much is wage stickiness in action (inflation has a slower effect on pay than on prices because pay increases involve long, drawn-out disputes. Economists call this effect "stickiness.").
- II2II 3y agoYes, that is an issue. My union (mostly non-tech workers) was negotiating for a new contract when the old when had expired 18 months prior and had been negotiated two or three years before that. It was such a long wait that a lot of good people were lost in the process, particularly since inflation has been abnormally high. It sounds like many other unions in my neck of the woods are in a similar situation.
- mnd999 3y agoThe current model of superconcentrating wealth among fewer and fewer individuals whilst everyone else gets screwed is not sustainable. This had to happen.
- candiddevmike 3y agoRich people with GenAI workers: hold my beer Now more than ever we need to fix the inequality before it spirals (more) out of control
- PartiallyTyped 3y agoOn the contrary, this is the right time to floor the gas pedal and accelerate the process before a new norm gets established. The bigger the delta, the easier it will be to establish long-term changes that work for the 99% instead of prolonging feudalism.
- lockhouse 3y agoWhat do you propose for these long term changes?
- PartiallyTyped 3y agoGovernment developed housing, improved infrastructure, ubi, universal healthcare, free tertiary and postgrad education for tax residents.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago"This" isn't really happening. You get 10% inflation and the union gets you a 7% raise (which you could have also gotten by switching jobs or threatening to in a non-union shop), and they claim to have done you a favor. To actually fix it you need to break up concentrated industries and address the regulatory capture that enables them. Or do something about cost disease -- the thing where work that could have been done by one person in one hour instead needs a chain of seven corporations with lawyers and administrators who each contribute overhead and take a vig, and then people can't afford anything because an hour's worth of labor only buys two minutes of "real work" from someone else.
- mustafa_pasi 3y agoLow wages result in economic stagnation. Just compare California to Germany for an example. Here in Germany, we have unions that put job security above all else including wages. And employers that offer job security as a perk rather than offering higher wages. Result: an over burdened middle class, little innovation and a stagnant economy.
- prettywoman 3y ago[dead]
- asdff 3y agoOne can even just look at California itself to make this example as there are very high levels of inequality there. You certainly see compensation rise astronomically in some industries in California and an overall increase of state GDP, but at the same time, other industries do not see such rises in lock step with inflation brought on by more fortunate groups, and as a result the working class are severely rent burdened and lack a means to save or pay down debt. Its like there are two economies. There is the economy about large numbers, GDPs, market caps, stock option compensation packages, increasing real estate returns. Then there is the real world economy. People selling elote on the street. People working in convenience stores. People driving pickup trucks full of tools. People looking for the cheapest rent they can find. People going to night school at a community college. It seems that the former is only able to grow so much at the expense of keeping it out of the hands of the latter.
- runnerup 3y ago16% of Germans[0] and 16% of Californians[1] are in a union. 7% of Mississippians[2] are in a union. Mississippi vs. California is also interesting. Mississippi has far less participation in unions (7% vs 16%) and much less regulation for employers to follow. Overall Mississippi looks like one of the best places in the USA for employers in terms of an accommodating regulatory environment. However, personal outcomes in Mississippi are languishing compared to even Germany! Let alone compared to California. You chose an interesting two geographies to compare/contrast. It looks like 16-17% of Californians are in a union. It also looks like 16-17% of Germans are in a union. Perhaps it’s not the degree of union participation which drives differences in economic opportunity between these regions! 0: https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=TUD https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=TUD 1: https://www.bls.gov/regions/west/news-release/unionmembership_california.htm#:~:text=In%202022%2C%20union%20members%20accounted,of%20Labor%20Statistics%20reported%20today https://www.bls.gov/regions/west/news-release/unionmembershi.... 2: https://stacker.com/mississippi/see-how-much-mississippis-workforce-unionized https://stacker.com/mississippi/see-how-much-mississippis-wo...
- prettywoman 3y ago[dead]
- backendanon 3y agoTrade a corporate boss for both a corporate boss and a union thug, near mafia boss? No thank you.
- Contusion3532 3y agoUnions have these things that you might of heard of... elections, where you can elect your leadership. How much democracy is for employees in a corporation?
- kazen44 3y agothis depends on the country actually. A lot of countries have work's council[0] enshrined into law. Which actually means you have some form of democratic control over what a company wants to do. i am still bewildered the US has nothing of the sort... in any kind of way. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council
- changoplatanero 3y agoIn the union that I was represented by you had to pay extra money to be a voting member. So for people like me that didn't like the union they still forcibly took some of my money but without any chance for me to vote on how they spent it.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- tchaffee 3y agoWhat was the "forcibly" part?
- changoplatanero 3y agoNo possible way to work for that employer and opt out of the fees. It was illegal for me to make an employment contract with my employer without them getting a cut.
- Animats 3y agoThe real break will come when Amazon, WalMart, or McDonalds goes union nationally. That became more likely with the new NLRB rule that employer violations of labor law during union organization forces either a quick election or the recognition of the union. Here's the view from a union-busting law firm.[1][2] They're worried. [1] https://www.morganlewis.com/pubs/2023/08/new-nlrb-rules-favor-mandatory-union-recognition-limit-employee-voting-in-secret-ballot-elections https://www.morganlewis.com/pubs/2023/08/new-nlrb-rules-favo... [2] https://www.postal-reporter.com/blog/the-postal-services-union-busting-law-firm https://www.postal-reporter.com/blog/the-postal-services-uni...
- jntvjnvutnuvt 3y agoThere are many right to work states that don't force union membership.
- aaomidi 3y agoYeah, makes the union slightly weaker, while still keeping it a good deal. Better than refusing the union.
- jntvjnvutnuvt 3y agoCompanies can just relocate to right to work states which they have been doing.
- toomuchtodo 3y agoPerpetual labor shortages due to structural demographics and the decline of conservatism due to the 55+ death rate means this will only work so long [1] [2]. [1] https://www.axios.com/2023/08/27/labor-shortages-air-traffic-health-care-teachers-police https://www.axios.com/2023/08/27/labor-shortages-air-traffic... [2] https://www.businessinsider.com/baby-boomer-retirement-surge-spark-forever-labor-shortage-jobs-workers-2023-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/baby-boomer-retirement-surge...
- balderdash 3y agoI’m generally pretty happy to see people be successful with private sector unions where there is a built-in give and take (take to much and put your company out of business and yourself out of a job) - but public sector unions need to be illegalized
- tchaffee 3y agoPublic sector unions do seem problematic. How do you suggest public employees negotiate the highest possible wages for themselves?
- balderdash 3y agoI see the as problem actually just the opposite - the public sector unions are unaccountable and have already figured out how to extract overly generous benefits at the expense of the populace.
- tchaffee 3y agoWhat I'm asking is how would people employed in the public sector negotiate a fair wage if the unions didn't exist? What would the mechanism be? What's your definition of "overly generous"? Based on what criteria?
- balderdash 3y agoI’d describe overly generous as being being unsustainable/bankrupting the very communities they serve. (Or for a qualitative example take police officers in Suffolk county NY earning $200k-$700k/yr in addition to generous pension and health benefits (worth millions on top of that)) You raise a reasonable point that I admittedly don’t have a satisfactory response for, regarding an alternative negotiating framework, but it seems to me the pendulum has swung way too far in one direction, and their is no effective check on capture by public sector unions.
- tchaffee 3y ago