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That sounds idealistic, but not practical. Users want application developers to design applications for them, not use the browser settings to design & customize

That sounds idealistic, but not practical. Users want application developers to design applications for them, not use the browser settings to design & customize the application for themselves, because most users aren't designers, and even if they are, they don't want to spend the time.

lolinder 3y ago
It's not idealistic to expect an application to adapt to a user's device, it's called accessibility and it's the law. Some users will change the font size because they can't see well, others will interact exclusively with a screen reader, others will need to change your colors because they're color blind. Still others will try to automate their tasks with scripts and macros. The web is the most accessible platform that exists if it's used right, where "used right" means embracing the fact that the user's browser (with all of its customizations) has ultimate control over the user's experience with your application. If you want ultimate control you want a native app.
- breadwinner 3y ago
  > It's not idealistic to expect an application to adapt to a user's device, it's called accessibility and it's the law. What does that have to do with rounded corners?
  - lolinder 3y ago
    I'm referring to OP's list of things they change: > I want the browser to act as my agent, following my preferences in all things. I set a minimum font size, I control which fonts pages may use, I control when they may run scripts, when they may have videos or sound, what form controls (buttons, text inputs, etc) look like, when they may load content from third–party domains, etc, etc. Some of these are privacy considerations, but most of them are also accessibility-related for some people. Ensuring fonts are in readable ranges for a given person, preventing autoplay, changing form controls to stand out more—all of these are things that people do to accommodate for disabilities. This one thing that bugs you (rounded corners) is an aesthetic change, but the fact remains that you should expect browsers to modify your designs to meet user needs. If this serves as a wakeup call to designers that they can't count on pixel-perfect designs, good.
    - breadwinner 3y ago
      You are conflating design/aesthetic choices with accessibility. The browser designer is enforcing their aesthetic choices (which happens to be ugly and inconsistent) on their users. That's OK if it only impacts the browser chrome. If it impacts the content area, then the browser designer should defer to the application designer. > you should expect browsers to modify your designs to meet user needs. As a user, I don't want browser messing with the application design. There is no way to turn off these "enhancements".
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - lolinder 3y ago
        > There is no way to turn off these "enhancements". It sounds like there will be. In the meantime, Edge is not the only browser available to you, and you can always switch. > If it impacts the content area, then the browser designer should defer to the application designer. No. I want application designers to always be aware that their designs for web applications will be modified by the clients and cannot be expected to match their Figma sketches. Web applications are guests on the user's computer, and if Edge having rounded corners helps drive that home, I'm very content with that!
        breadwinner 3y ago
        If those are user's preferences then that's OK! But they are not. Can we all agree that having top-left corner be rounded, while leaving top-right corner square is just dumb? Can we all agree that a white border on a dark-mode page is stupid as heck? This is what happens when browser makers interfere with web application design.
        db48x 3y ago
        No, I don't want to go around dividing those things into “accessibility” and “merely aesthetic” buckets, and then only allow the things in the first bucket. For one thing, some of them are both. I can and do apply custom style sheets to all kinds of web pages, which make all kinds of changes that the web designer might not like. Some of them improve the aesthetics according to my idiosyncratic preferences, others improve my ability to access the content. And of course it should go without saying that I remove all the ads and other nonsense too. If you are speaking as a web designer, then you don’t get to complain about rounded corners on the viewport. Or about any other thing which the browser does to your page, even if you think of your page as an application. If you are speaking simply as a user of Edge, then you should complain to Microsoft if those rounded corners offend your sense of aesthetics. Or use a different browser. I recommend Firefox! Firefox is great.
JohnFen 3y ago
> Users want application developers to design applications for them, not use the browser settings to design & customize the application True, but web devs tend to do such a poor job of it that being able to use browser settings to try to mitigate that is very important. But the underlying point isn't even that. The underlying point is that the browser is a user agent and as such, should have the last word in terms of how the content is being presented. If a browser is making a poor choice, then the beef is properly between the end user and the browser maker more than between the web dev and the browser maker.

lolinder 3y ago

It's not idealistic to expect an application to adapt to a user's device, it's called accessibility and it's the law. Some users will change the font size because they can't see well, others will interact exclusively with a screen reader, others will need to change your colors because they're color blind. Still others will try to automate their tasks with scripts and macros. The web is the most accessible platform that exists if it's used right, where "used right" means embracing the fact that the user's browser (with all of its customizations) has ultimate control over the user's experience with your application. If you want ultimate control you want a native app.

breadwinner 3y ago
> It's not idealistic to expect an application to adapt to a user's device, it's called accessibility and it's the law. What does that have to do with rounded corners?
- lolinder 3y ago
  I'm referring to OP's list of things they change: > I want the browser to act as my agent, following my preferences in all things. I set a minimum font size, I control which fonts pages may use, I control when they may run scripts, when they may have videos or sound, what form controls (buttons, text inputs, etc) look like, when they may load content from third–party domains, etc, etc. Some of these are privacy considerations, but most of them are also accessibility-related for some people. Ensuring fonts are in readable ranges for a given person, preventing autoplay, changing form controls to stand out more—all of these are things that people do to accommodate for disabilities. This one thing that bugs you (rounded corners) is an aesthetic change, but the fact remains that you should expect browsers to modify your designs to meet user needs. If this serves as a wakeup call to designers that they can't count on pixel-perfect designs, good.
  - breadwinner 3y ago
    You are conflating design/aesthetic choices with accessibility. The browser designer is enforcing their aesthetic choices (which happens to be ugly and inconsistent) on their users. That's OK if it only impacts the browser chrome. If it impacts the content area, then the browser designer should defer to the application designer. > you should expect browsers to modify your designs to meet user needs. As a user, I don't want browser messing with the application design. There is no way to turn off these "enhancements".
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - lolinder 3y ago
      > There is no way to turn off these "enhancements". It sounds like there will be. In the meantime, Edge is not the only browser available to you, and you can always switch. > If it impacts the content area, then the browser designer should defer to the application designer. No. I want application designers to always be aware that their designs for web applications will be modified by the clients and cannot be expected to match their Figma sketches. Web applications are guests on the user's computer, and if Edge having rounded corners helps drive that home, I'm very content with that!
      - breadwinner 3y ago
        If those are user's preferences then that's OK! But they are not. Can we all agree that having top-left corner be rounded, while leaving top-right corner square is just dumb? Can we all agree that a white border on a dark-mode page is stupid as heck? This is what happens when browser makers interfere with web application design.
        db48x 3y ago
        No, I don't want to go around dividing those things into “accessibility” and “merely aesthetic” buckets, and then only allow the things in the first bucket. For one thing, some of them are both. I can and do apply custom style sheets to all kinds of web pages, which make all kinds of changes that the web designer might not like. Some of them improve the aesthetics according to my idiosyncratic preferences, others improve my ability to access the content. And of course it should go without saying that I remove all the ads and other nonsense too. If you are speaking as a web designer, then you don’t get to complain about rounded corners on the viewport. Or about any other thing which the browser does to your page, even if you think of your page as an application. If you are speaking simply as a user of Edge, then you should complain to Microsoft if those rounded corners offend your sense of aesthetics. Or use a different browser. I recommend Firefox! Firefox is great.

JohnFen 3y ago

> Users want application developers to design applications for them, not use the browser settings to design & customize the application True, but web devs tend to do such a poor job of it that being able to use browser settings to try to mitigate that is very important. But the underlying point isn't even that. The underlying point is that the browser is a user agent and as such, should have the last word in terms of how the content is being presented. If a browser is making a poor choice, then the beef is properly between the end user and the browser maker more than between the web dev and the browser maker.