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That’s not the rule I want browsers to follow. I want the browser to act as my agent, following my preferences in all things. I set a minimum font size, I contr

by db48x 3y ago

That’s not the rule I want browsers to follow. I want the browser to act as my agent, following my preferences in all things. I set a minimum font size, I control which fonts pages may use, I control when they may run scripts, when they may have videos or sound, what form controls (buttons, text inputs, etc) look like, when they may load content from third–party domains, etc, etc. Web application developers should not complain when a web browser changes the look or feel of their application, even if the browser makes super weird choices like putting rounded corners on the viewport. If the user doesn’t like it they’ll tell the browser vender. The web designer doesn’t get a vote.

breadwinner 3y ago
That sounds idealistic, but not practical. Users want application developers to design applications for them, not use the browser settings to design & customize the application for themselves, because most users aren't designers, and even if they are, they don't want to spend the time.
- lolinder 3y ago
  It's not idealistic to expect an application to adapt to a user's device, it's called accessibility and it's the law. Some users will change the font size because they can't see well, others will interact exclusively with a screen reader, others will need to change your colors because they're color blind. Still others will try to automate their tasks with scripts and macros. The web is the most accessible platform that exists if it's used right, where "used right" means embracing the fact that the user's browser (with all of its customizations) has ultimate control over the user's experience with your application. If you want ultimate control you want a native app.
  - breadwinner 3y ago
    > It's not idealistic to expect an application to adapt to a user's device, it's called accessibility and it's the law. What does that have to do with rounded corners?
    - lolinder 3y ago
      I'm referring to OP's list of things they change: > I want the browser to act as my agent, following my preferences in all things. I set a minimum font size, I control which fonts pages may use, I control when they may run scripts, when they may have videos or sound, what form controls (buttons, text inputs, etc) look like, when they may load content from third–party domains, etc, etc. Some of these are privacy considerations, but most of them are also accessibility-related for some people. Ensuring fonts are in readable ranges for a given person, preventing autoplay, changing form controls to stand out more—all of these are things that people do to accommodate for disabilities. This one thing that bugs you (rounded corners) is an aesthetic change, but the fact remains that you should expect browsers to modify your designs to meet user needs. If this serves as a wakeup call to designers that they can't count on pixel-perfect designs, good.
      - breadwinner 3y ago
        You are conflating design/aesthetic choices with accessibility. The browser designer is enforcing their aesthetic choices (which happens to be ugly and inconsistent) on their users. That's OK if it only impacts the browser chrome. If it impacts the content area, then the browser designer should defer to the application designer. > you should expect browsers to modify your designs to meet user needs. As a user, I don't want browser messing with the application design. There is no way to turn off these "enhancements".
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        lolinder 3y ago
        > There is no way to turn off these "enhancements". It sounds like there will be. In the meantime, Edge is not the only browser available to you, and you can always switch. > If it impacts the content area, then the browser designer should defer to the application designer. No. I want application designers to always be aware that their designs for web applications will be modified by the clients and cannot be expected to match their Figma sketches. Web applications are guests on the user's computer, and if Edge having rounded corners helps drive that home, I'm very content with that!
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > Users want application developers to design applications for them, not use the browser settings to design & customize the application True, but web devs tend to do such a poor job of it that being able to use browser settings to try to mitigate that is very important. But the underlying point isn't even that. The underlying point is that the browser is a user agent and as such, should have the last word in terms of how the content is being presented. If a browser is making a poor choice, then the beef is properly between the end user and the browser maker more than between the web dev and the browser maker.
zzo38computer 3y ago
I agree, although the browser should include appropriate settings/functions for the user to configure all of the things that you mention (and others as well, such as maximum font size, request headers, file format and protocol handlers, etc), and should have suitable defaults. The user ought to have the ability to turn off the rounded corners (fortunately it seems there is such an option, so that would be good), and it also probably ought to be off by default.
gary_0 3y ago
> If the user doesn’t like it they’ll tell the browser vender. Let's be realistic: Microsoft, Google, and Mozilla aren't listening. They'll cram all sorts of ugly annoying stuff in your face and laugh at your pitiful forum threads begging for a setting to turn it all off.
joker_minmax 3y ago
By this logic we may as well go back into plaintext Netscape sites and let the browser determine everything about how we see the content. What is the limit to what the browser is allowed to do, and where do your preferences end and the browser's preferences that you can't change begin?

by db48x 3y ago

breadwinner 3y ago

That sounds idealistic, but not practical. Users want application developers to design applications for them, not use the browser settings to design & customize the application for themselves, because most users aren't designers, and even if they are, they don't want to spend the time.

lolinder 3y ago
It's not idealistic to expect an application to adapt to a user's device, it's called accessibility and it's the law. Some users will change the font size because they can't see well, others will interact exclusively with a screen reader, others will need to change your colors because they're color blind. Still others will try to automate their tasks with scripts and macros. The web is the most accessible platform that exists if it's used right, where "used right" means embracing the fact that the user's browser (with all of its customizations) has ultimate control over the user's experience with your application. If you want ultimate control you want a native app.
- breadwinner 3y ago
  > It's not idealistic to expect an application to adapt to a user's device, it's called accessibility and it's the law. What does that have to do with rounded corners?
  - lolinder 3y ago
    I'm referring to OP's list of things they change: > I want the browser to act as my agent, following my preferences in all things. I set a minimum font size, I control which fonts pages may use, I control when they may run scripts, when they may have videos or sound, what form controls (buttons, text inputs, etc) look like, when they may load content from third–party domains, etc, etc. Some of these are privacy considerations, but most of them are also accessibility-related for some people. Ensuring fonts are in readable ranges for a given person, preventing autoplay, changing form controls to stand out more—all of these are things that people do to accommodate for disabilities. This one thing that bugs you (rounded corners) is an aesthetic change, but the fact remains that you should expect browsers to modify your designs to meet user needs. If this serves as a wakeup call to designers that they can't count on pixel-perfect designs, good.
    - breadwinner 3y ago
      You are conflating design/aesthetic choices with accessibility. The browser designer is enforcing their aesthetic choices (which happens to be ugly and inconsistent) on their users. That's OK if it only impacts the browser chrome. If it impacts the content area, then the browser designer should defer to the application designer. > you should expect browsers to modify your designs to meet user needs. As a user, I don't want browser messing with the application design. There is no way to turn off these "enhancements".
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - lolinder 3y ago
        > There is no way to turn off these "enhancements". It sounds like there will be. In the meantime, Edge is not the only browser available to you, and you can always switch. > If it impacts the content area, then the browser designer should defer to the application designer. No. I want application designers to always be aware that their designs for web applications will be modified by the clients and cannot be expected to match their Figma sketches. Web applications are guests on the user's computer, and if Edge having rounded corners helps drive that home, I'm very content with that!
JohnFen 3y ago
> Users want application developers to design applications for them, not use the browser settings to design & customize the application True, but web devs tend to do such a poor job of it that being able to use browser settings to try to mitigate that is very important. But the underlying point isn't even that. The underlying point is that the browser is a user agent and as such, should have the last word in terms of how the content is being presented. If a browser is making a poor choice, then the beef is properly between the end user and the browser maker more than between the web dev and the browser maker.

zzo38computer 3y ago

I agree, although the browser should include appropriate settings/functions for the user to configure all of the things that you mention (and others as well, such as maximum font size, request headers, file format and protocol handlers, etc), and should have suitable defaults. The user ought to have the ability to turn off the rounded corners (fortunately it seems there is such an option, so that would be good), and it also probably ought to be off by default.

gary_0 3y ago

> If the user doesn’t like it they’ll tell the browser vender. Let's be realistic: Microsoft, Google, and Mozilla aren't listening. They'll cram all sorts of ugly annoying stuff in your face and laugh at your pitiful forum threads begging for a setting to turn it all off.

joker_minmax 3y ago

By this logic we may as well go back into plaintext Netscape sites and let the browser determine everything about how we see the content. What is the limit to what the browser is allowed to do, and where do your preferences end and the browser's preferences that you can't change begin?