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Do you have an example or can expand on what you mean about the last point? Isn't sharpness mostly limited by the lens systems in modern cameras rather than the

by verall 3y ago

Do you have an example or can expand on what you mean about the last point? Isn't sharpness mostly limited by the lens systems in modern cameras rather than the Bayer sensor resolution?

fidotron 3y ago
The use of a bayer filter means that the actual edges for different colour areas are created in software processing afterwards. This causes everything to be slightly misaligned and fuzzy in a way the foveon was not, and no amount of reconstructive processing is going to help you. Of course today the actual resolution of more conventional sensors dramatically exceeds the best foveons to the point where this advantage is nullified.
- verall 3y ago
  I work on camera systems, I know how a Bayer filter works, it doesn't make everything misaligned and fuzzy. Edge directed upscaling works great. I'm curious how the foveon looked different or if you had an example. If you only mean for old digital cameras, then sure. But you're not seeing bayer artifacts in any modern camera. Rolling shutter artifacts, on the other hand..
  - dharma1 3y ago
    I can send you some example images of Foveon Merrill sensor if you want. The cameras are slow by today’s standards, but the images are delightfully detailed. Sigma is still working on a new full frame Foveon camera, I am waiting patiently. https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/sigma-will-never-give-up-on-the-foveon-sensor-says-ceo https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/sigma-will-never-giv... Back to topic, I believe this type of tech (analog/physical computing, processing and memory in the same unit) will become very significant on a 10+ year horizon. Hinton has been hinting at some collaborations recently
  - fidotron 3y ago
    > I work on camera systems, I know how a Bayer filter works, it doesn't make everything misaligned and fuzzy. Edge directed upscaling works great. The point is you might think that if you were blissfully unaware of anything else. Even if you're not you shouldn't, because edge directed upscaling is imagining information into the sensor data that isn't actually there.
  - numpad0 3y ago
    It's not like Foveons are objectively better for satellite imageries and military "electro-optical" cameras, it's bit of a digital camera equivalent to reversal films and DSD audio. The two main gotchas of Foveon sensors in its days(so far) were while SIGMA maintained that Foveon pixels are worth 3x Bayer, the sensor resolutions were consistently 1/3rd or less than competitors to begin with, and also that the sensitivity was atrocious. ISO800 was pushing it for early models and recognizable colors at ISO3200 in later models was an achievement in its own(they lose chroma before luma). Fujifilm did better than that in films! SIGMA Corporation in Japan was virtually the only user of Foveon sensor, in their DP and SD series cameras. Photos taken with e.g. dp2 Quattro in 50mm, DP1x in 28mm are easily found on Flickr. To me a Foveon image looks like it's taken through a piece of radiation shielding glass and later color corrected, which I'm guessing to be close to literal description as the color components are indeed captured through preceding luma and first chroma layers.

by verall 3y ago

Do you have an example or can expand on what you mean about the last point? Isn't sharpness mostly limited by the lens systems in modern cameras rather than the Bayer sensor resolution?

fidotron 3y ago

The use of a bayer filter means that the actual edges for different colour areas are created in software processing afterwards. This causes everything to be slightly misaligned and fuzzy in a way the foveon was not, and no amount of reconstructive processing is going to help you. Of course today the actual resolution of more conventional sensors dramatically exceeds the best foveons to the point where this advantage is nullified.

verall 3y ago
I work on camera systems, I know how a Bayer filter works, it doesn't make everything misaligned and fuzzy. Edge directed upscaling works great. I'm curious how the foveon looked different or if you had an example. If you only mean for old digital cameras, then sure. But you're not seeing bayer artifacts in any modern camera. Rolling shutter artifacts, on the other hand..
- dharma1 3y ago
  I can send you some example images of Foveon Merrill sensor if you want. The cameras are slow by today’s standards, but the images are delightfully detailed. Sigma is still working on a new full frame Foveon camera, I am waiting patiently. https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/sigma-will-never-give-up-on-the-foveon-sensor-says-ceo https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/sigma-will-never-giv... Back to topic, I believe this type of tech (analog/physical computing, processing and memory in the same unit) will become very significant on a 10+ year horizon. Hinton has been hinting at some collaborations recently
- fidotron 3y ago
  > I work on camera systems, I know how a Bayer filter works, it doesn't make everything misaligned and fuzzy. Edge directed upscaling works great. The point is you might think that if you were blissfully unaware of anything else. Even if you're not you shouldn't, because edge directed upscaling is imagining information into the sensor data that isn't actually there.
- numpad0 3y ago
  It's not like Foveons are objectively better for satellite imageries and military "electro-optical" cameras, it's bit of a digital camera equivalent to reversal films and DSD audio. The two main gotchas of Foveon sensors in its days(so far) were while SIGMA maintained that Foveon pixels are worth 3x Bayer, the sensor resolutions were consistently 1/3rd or less than competitors to begin with, and also that the sensitivity was atrocious. ISO800 was pushing it for early models and recognizable colors at ISO3200 in later models was an achievement in its own(they lose chroma before luma). Fujifilm did better than that in films! SIGMA Corporation in Japan was virtually the only user of Foveon sensor, in their DP and SD series cameras. Photos taken with e.g. dp2 Quattro in 50mm, DP1x in 28mm are easily found on Flickr. To me a Foveon image looks like it's taken through a piece of radiation shielding glass and later color corrected, which I'm guessing to be close to literal description as the color components are indeed captured through preceding luma and first chroma layers.