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The old techniques didn’t fall out because building stopped. New materials and tools are why. The techniques used for some intricate carving were sure to be los

The old techniques didn’t fall out because building stopped. New materials and tools are why. The techniques used for some intricate carving were sure to be lost when electric tools and computer aided machine tech came into existence. The average rough carpenter is probably lousy with a hammer compared to 150 years ago but they can frame a house out just fine using a nail gun.

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
> The techniques used for some intricate carving were sure to be lost when electric tools and computer aided machine tech came into existence. No. The new tools and tech were bound to succeed in a culture that valued reductions in time and labor costs. But there's nothing inevitable about such a culture, and it seems perfectly possible for there to be others that would have ranked the new tools and techniques inferior to the old ones for a variety of reasons.
- nemo44x 3y ago
  The Amish, sure. But no serious culture has abandon technology.
  - brnaftr361 3y ago
    There's records of it, Graeber details some instances in The Dawn of Everything. As to your definition of culture, I would say it's lacking in sophistication. And when not abandoning it, in many cases it can be foisted upon people. Imagine a scenario where some people's hand farm, but their traditional trade partners elected to buy into the globalist system: there's simply no way for them to compete against industries of scale. So they're disintegrated from their neighbors and can't rely upon them for trade. And if you look at the record, there is evidence of widespread trade networks from people's dwelling in South/Central America to the North American East. If we take Diamond's word for it, that's a considerable disruption due to the sort of intrinsic constraints he proposed (poor progenitor species for agriculture/beasts of burden) that may present if extremely strict conservativism is abided.
  - philwelch 3y ago
    Compare your culture’s TFR to the Amish. Which is the “serious culture”? Which will still exist in 200 years?
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      what do flight restrictions have to do with this?
    - nemo44x 3y ago
      Using math I’d say probably western liberal culture is more likely to survive. Amish culture requires western liberal culture since they can’t defend themselves. If western liberal culture has a successor there’s a lower probability that the Amish are allowed to exist.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    Live out of your imagination, not your history.
- cultofmetatron 3y ago
  and yet square nails have almost been entirely supplanted by cheaper to mass produce round nails. a house built with square nails is going to be vastly superior in structural integrity and longevity all else equal. but they are harder to mass produce and don't fit into a nailgun.
mitthrowaway2 3y ago
I don't know about that. In my North American city, the old public schools, buildings, bridges, and earthworks from pre-WW2 are embellished with intricate patterns and decorative detailing, even when they are made from reinforced concrete. Buildings made after the war are, almost without exception, made plain and featureless, even when they are also made from reinforced concrete. Modern tools, computers, and electricity don't make it any harder to add detailing (and it's also hard to believe such features become harder to afford as society became wealthier in general).
- pseudalopex 3y ago
  Society became more fixated on efficiency also.
  - b112 3y ago
    I wonder of some of the markings were wards. A practice that would eventually cease, with a loss of wide spread belief in mysticism.
  - pessimizer 3y ago
    Except in square footage.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  Yes, I agree. Postwar buildings are much more likely to be featureless compared to 19th or early 20th century buildings, even regular houses. I think the economic boom and demand for new houses and buildings contributed to skipping the sort of traditional detail and ornate finishing work for the sake of moving on to the next project.
  - trilbyglens 3y ago
    Also a function of modernistic ideas about architecture, if you can even apply such a label to most american building work. Most of it is just really utilitarian and miserable.
  - 3y ago

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago

> The techniques used for some intricate carving were sure to be lost when electric tools and computer aided machine tech came into existence. No. The new tools and tech were bound to succeed in a culture that valued reductions in time and labor costs. But there's nothing inevitable about such a culture, and it seems perfectly possible for there to be others that would have ranked the new tools and techniques inferior to the old ones for a variety of reasons.

nemo44x 3y ago
The Amish, sure. But no serious culture has abandon technology.
- brnaftr361 3y ago
  There's records of it, Graeber details some instances in The Dawn of Everything. As to your definition of culture, I would say it's lacking in sophistication. And when not abandoning it, in many cases it can be foisted upon people. Imagine a scenario where some people's hand farm, but their traditional trade partners elected to buy into the globalist system: there's simply no way for them to compete against industries of scale. So they're disintegrated from their neighbors and can't rely upon them for trade. And if you look at the record, there is evidence of widespread trade networks from people's dwelling in South/Central America to the North American East. If we take Diamond's word for it, that's a considerable disruption due to the sort of intrinsic constraints he proposed (poor progenitor species for agriculture/beasts of burden) that may present if extremely strict conservativism is abided.
- philwelch 3y ago
  Compare your culture’s TFR to the Amish. Which is the “serious culture”? Which will still exist in 200 years?
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    what do flight restrictions have to do with this?
  - nemo44x 3y ago
    Using math I’d say probably western liberal culture is more likely to survive. Amish culture requires western liberal culture since they can’t defend themselves. If western liberal culture has a successor there’s a lower probability that the Amish are allowed to exist.
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  Live out of your imagination, not your history.
cultofmetatron 3y ago
and yet square nails have almost been entirely supplanted by cheaper to mass produce round nails. a house built with square nails is going to be vastly superior in structural integrity and longevity all else equal. but they are harder to mass produce and don't fit into a nailgun.

mitthrowaway2 3y ago

I don't know about that. In my North American city, the old public schools, buildings, bridges, and earthworks from pre-WW2 are embellished with intricate patterns and decorative detailing, even when they are made from reinforced concrete. Buildings made after the war are, almost without exception, made plain and featureless, even when they are also made from reinforced concrete. Modern tools, computers, and electricity don't make it any harder to add detailing (and it's also hard to believe such features become harder to afford as society became wealthier in general).

pseudalopex 3y ago
Society became more fixated on efficiency also.
- b112 3y ago
  I wonder of some of the markings were wards. A practice that would eventually cease, with a loss of wide spread belief in mysticism.
- pessimizer 3y ago
  Except in square footage.
SoftTalker 3y ago
Yes, I agree. Postwar buildings are much more likely to be featureless compared to 19th or early 20th century buildings, even regular houses. I think the economic boom and demand for new houses and buildings contributed to skipping the sort of traditional detail and ornate finishing work for the sake of moving on to the next project.
- trilbyglens 3y ago
  Also a function of modernistic ideas about architecture, if you can even apply such a label to most american building work. Most of it is just really utilitarian and miserable.
- 3y ago