10 ms·

For those like me who will be initially perplexed: Context filters take the results of a search and allow you to filter them by things like "five stars" or lab

For those like me who will be initially perplexed: Context filters take the results of a search and allow you to filter them by things like "five stars" or labels. There is much discussion about why advanced search is bad, but the case for filters is a one liner - filters solve all the problems. And the "how to use filters" part is the last drawing in the article. Once I got that it is an interesting thought, but I'm left trying to understand if there are downsides to filters?

chiefalchemist 3y ago
For the sake of discussion, downsides: A) Added overhead to the backend B) UX - if you some filters but not the one(s) I want or need, then I'll get frustrated. No filters at all won't set me up for that. For example, eBay's filters are good for some types of products but not others. C) A and B combined. I've noticed that some filtering UX - Home Depot, I believe is an example - will update the count of the # of products matching your filters. Check a box...wait. Check another box...wait. Fat finger the wrong box...wait...uncheck...wait. I'm not saying these are reasons to not use filters, only pointing out some friction.
- masklinn 3y ago
  Filters are also slow as fuck because they almost always need to apply before you can go on. So you are on a results page, you want 4-5 starts with attributes x and y, that’s not just 4 clicks that’s 4 clicks and waiting for the entire thing to reload every time before you can continue. An other issue more intrinsic to filters is their inconsistency: because only applicable filters are shown entire categories can be missing and you need to hunt through every time.
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    But that is just bad programming and not something inheritently wrong with filters.
    - masklinn 3y ago
      Neither are half the complaints in TFA inherent to the “advanced search paradigm”. And this issue is extremely common IME.
  - jfengel 3y ago
    If you make users click a Go button, they won't notice it, and get frustrated. It's one of very few times I'll allow an animation. If the go button has been available but not clicked for some seconds, it will call attention to itself. I hate that but the only users who see it are the confused ones who need it. (Hopefully.)
    - chiefalchemist 3y ago
      Yes and no. If you wait to indicate # of results from filter choices you run the risk of the user "drilling down" to zero. That is...pick...pick...pick...Go.."No results for your filters". That's not fun either. I find I use filters - again Home Depot is a good example of bad - because the search is too loose. I'll enter a brand in the search term and have to use filters to pick only the brand I want to see. The search should first try to answer the users search, not dump more possible products in the customers' face hoping the buy sonething.
  - Izkata 3y ago
    Our solution for this was to put something like a 5-second debounce on automatically updating, but skip the delay and update immediately if the mouse moves outside of the filter area.
  - TylerE 3y ago
    Sounds like a use case for frames?
- CrazyPyroLinux 3y ago
  Funny, I was just experiencing the exact same thing with Home Depot in another tab. Left in frustration for a HN break and saw this!
- internet101010 3y ago
  I'll add that eBay's search is really good if you know how to use it. By use it I mean encapsulating every important phrase that you want to include or exclude within parenthesis and using commas as "or" statements within the parenthesis, such that "(phrase 1) -(phrase 2, phrase 3)" will return results for phrase 1 and exclude any listings that contain phrase 2 or phrase 3. It also pays attention to spacing so that only exact matches are returned.
  - chiefalchemist 3y ago
    I'll try that. But I find that when say, adidas has sales on eBay is a very time consuming experience.
bick_nyers 3y ago
It relies on things being correctly tagged. Over or under tagging will reduce discoverability. If you have a product (or tag) that is loosely defined or changes over time, this can cause issues as well. It's easy to do this for something rigid like technical specs. but if you have ever looked for something hyperspecific (e.g. multiple tags) on a site such as Newegg you've no doubt had some run-ins here and there with incorrect tagging. This is further exacerbated if you allow individual vendors to do the tagging of their own products, who will have a perverse incentive to do "SEO", or may not spend enough time/effort resulting in undertagging. Often times what you are left with are only a handful of "high-level" tags/filters that don't actually filter much, forcing you to spend more time looking at and evaluating multiple products (which marketing/sales teams of companies probably view as a net positive). TL;DR: Filtering is an absolute boon when there is proper tag curation. Edit: I should clarify that I think Newegg is really solid as far as tagging is concerned, but the fact that this occasionally happens even in that environment just goes to show that it requires effort to do right and you may not get 100% discoverability.
- ysavir 3y ago
  Doesn't Advanced Search have the same problems? Ultimately, every input on an advanced search page can be a filter. The tagging issue, while incredibly valid, doesn't seem to be an inherent part of either approach.
  - adambsilver 3y ago
    I wondered this too.
- talkingtab 3y ago
  I'm working on how to implement search (and filters) for classified ads and this was helpful. For ad entry, it seems you can either constrain user's input (essentially forcing them to choose from a list of options - ad type, the thing, category, etc. Or let them do a more free form entry (just title, description, price) and then add tags to help people find their ad. Which raises the issue of how to curate tags. After reading your comment, I am thinking of building a list of what tags people search for "jobs, tractors, ..." make that into a suggestion list after people have entered their free form ad. The world is messy. For sale, resumes, wanted, car parts, used cars, car repair, cars for parts. Oh my.
Izkata 3y ago
Obvious one to me is arbitrary complexity: You can't do "A or (B and C)" But even without such a complex use case, you have to consider multi-valued fields where a single search result can have two or more values. For example "charging method" for phones - if one supports both "usb-c" and "wireless", does selecting both of those filters mean AND or OR? (You could add a toggle for it, sure, but this is just a simple example that's easily missed, for example on Amazon)
adambsilver 3y ago
The only downsides to in context filters (is taking up space next to the results). But I think that is the right trade off to make for sure. Certainly my user research/usability testing has shown that to be true.
- runarberg 3y ago
  The space constraints can be solved. The filters can be neatly arranged under the search bar, in dropdowns, with some indication of activity state when not expanded. Any active filter can appear as a tag label in the search bar (with a click or to dismiss or backspace at the start of the search bar to pop). An excellent search bar might offer filter-suggestions as you type into the search bar, e.g. typing “Richmond” might show you a neighborhood filter for “The Richmond”, a city filter for “Richmond” along with the general search term “Richmond”. This way the filter only occupy some cheap vertical space which can be scrolled passed, with only active filters taking some space horizontal from the search bar (which can always just wrap anyway).

chiefalchemist 3y ago

For the sake of discussion, downsides: A) Added overhead to the backend B) UX - if you some filters but not the one(s) I want or need, then I'll get frustrated. No filters at all won't set me up for that. For example, eBay's filters are good for some types of products but not others. C) A and B combined. I've noticed that some filtering UX - Home Depot, I believe is an example - will update the count of the # of products matching your filters. Check a box...wait. Check another box...wait. Fat finger the wrong box...wait...uncheck...wait. I'm not saying these are reasons to not use filters, only pointing out some friction.

masklinn 3y ago
Filters are also slow as fuck because they almost always need to apply before you can go on. So you are on a results page, you want 4-5 starts with attributes x and y, that’s not just 4 clicks that’s 4 clicks and waiting for the entire thing to reload every time before you can continue. An other issue more intrinsic to filters is their inconsistency: because only applicable filters are shown entire categories can be missing and you need to hunt through every time.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  But that is just bad programming and not something inheritently wrong with filters.
  - masklinn 3y ago
    Neither are half the complaints in TFA inherent to the “advanced search paradigm”. And this issue is extremely common IME.
- jfengel 3y ago
  If you make users click a Go button, they won't notice it, and get frustrated. It's one of very few times I'll allow an animation. If the go button has been available but not clicked for some seconds, it will call attention to itself. I hate that but the only users who see it are the confused ones who need it. (Hopefully.)
  - chiefalchemist 3y ago
    Yes and no. If you wait to indicate # of results from filter choices you run the risk of the user "drilling down" to zero. That is...pick...pick...pick...Go.."No results for your filters". That's not fun either. I find I use filters - again Home Depot is a good example of bad - because the search is too loose. I'll enter a brand in the search term and have to use filters to pick only the brand I want to see. The search should first try to answer the users search, not dump more possible products in the customers' face hoping the buy sonething.
- Izkata 3y ago
  Our solution for this was to put something like a 5-second debounce on automatically updating, but skip the delay and update immediately if the mouse moves outside of the filter area.
- TylerE 3y ago
  Sounds like a use case for frames?
CrazyPyroLinux 3y ago
Funny, I was just experiencing the exact same thing with Home Depot in another tab. Left in frustration for a HN break and saw this!
internet101010 3y ago
I'll add that eBay's search is really good if you know how to use it. By use it I mean encapsulating every important phrase that you want to include or exclude within parenthesis and using commas as "or" statements within the parenthesis, such that "(phrase 1) -(phrase 2, phrase 3)" will return results for phrase 1 and exclude any listings that contain phrase 2 or phrase 3. It also pays attention to spacing so that only exact matches are returned.
- chiefalchemist 3y ago
  I'll try that. But I find that when say, adidas has sales on eBay is a very time consuming experience.

bick_nyers 3y ago

It relies on things being correctly tagged. Over or under tagging will reduce discoverability. If you have a product (or tag) that is loosely defined or changes over time, this can cause issues as well. It's easy to do this for something rigid like technical specs. but if you have ever looked for something hyperspecific (e.g. multiple tags) on a site such as Newegg you've no doubt had some run-ins here and there with incorrect tagging. This is further exacerbated if you allow individual vendors to do the tagging of their own products, who will have a perverse incentive to do "SEO", or may not spend enough time/effort resulting in undertagging. Often times what you are left with are only a handful of "high-level" tags/filters that don't actually filter much, forcing you to spend more time looking at and evaluating multiple products (which marketing/sales teams of companies probably view as a net positive). TL;DR: Filtering is an absolute boon when there is proper tag curation. Edit: I should clarify that I think Newegg is really solid as far as tagging is concerned, but the fact that this occasionally happens even in that environment just goes to show that it requires effort to do right and you may not get 100% discoverability.

ysavir 3y ago
Doesn't Advanced Search have the same problems? Ultimately, every input on an advanced search page can be a filter. The tagging issue, while incredibly valid, doesn't seem to be an inherent part of either approach.
- adambsilver 3y ago
  I wondered this too.
talkingtab 3y ago
I'm working on how to implement search (and filters) for classified ads and this was helpful. For ad entry, it seems you can either constrain user's input (essentially forcing them to choose from a list of options - ad type, the thing, category, etc. Or let them do a more free form entry (just title, description, price) and then add tags to help people find their ad. Which raises the issue of how to curate tags. After reading your comment, I am thinking of building a list of what tags people search for "jobs, tractors, ..." make that into a suggestion list after people have entered their free form ad. The world is messy. For sale, resumes, wanted, car parts, used cars, car repair, cars for parts. Oh my.

Izkata 3y ago

Obvious one to me is arbitrary complexity: You can't do "A or (B and C)" But even without such a complex use case, you have to consider multi-valued fields where a single search result can have two or more values. For example "charging method" for phones - if one supports both "usb-c" and "wireless", does selecting both of those filters mean AND or OR? (You could add a toggle for it, sure, but this is just a simple example that's easily missed, for example on Amazon)

adambsilver 3y ago

The only downsides to in context filters (is taking up space next to the results). But I think that is the right trade off to make for sure. Certainly my user research/usability testing has shown that to be true.

runarberg 3y ago
The space constraints can be solved. The filters can be neatly arranged under the search bar, in dropdowns, with some indication of activity state when not expanded. Any active filter can appear as a tag label in the search bar (with a click or to dismiss or backspace at the start of the search bar to pop). An excellent search bar might offer filter-suggestions as you type into the search bar, e.g. typing “Richmond” might show you a neighborhood filter for “The Richmond”, a city filter for “Richmond” along with the general search term “Richmond”. This way the filter only occupy some cheap vertical space which can be scrolled passed, with only active filters taking some space horizontal from the search bar (which can always just wrap anyway).