4 ms·

Such articles are… really laughable, as people differ in their physiology and circadian rhythms and it is NOT generally advisable to blindly follow someone else

by larodi 3y ago

Such articles are… really laughable, as people differ in their physiology and circadian rhythms and it is NOT generally advisable to blindly follow someone else’s experiences with sleep. There are books like ‘While we sleep’ which can give you some insight into the complexity of causes and effects and even this book was heavily criticised although the author did some actual research with cited sources etc. And I’m saying this as someone who had major problems with sleep for more than year, but now sleeps daily an average of 7-8hours. The only thing actually recommendable (IMHO of course) is to not force yourself into sleep, as this may very well backfire. Laying still and stuff like that is a rather forceful technique. For hyperactive and hollering people (with ADHD and alike) it may even amount to torture. All the CBT that you can apply is NOT universal. Techniques such as not eating too much, not drinking alcohol at night, cooling the room, counting eyes closed, doing exercise, having blinders, doing meditation if you want… are absolutely NOT universal and what works for someone may actually be bad for you and me. In reality the most common advice - to meditate before sleep - may result in contrary results. Courber intuitively there is evidence that sleep deprivation may actually help depression, rather than forcing sleep patterns. Please consult sleep experts, rather than consulting random articles although they may seem plausible.

karaterobot 3y ago
> For hyperactive and hollering people (with ADHD and alike) it may even amount to torture. Seems like a slight overstatement.
jimmydddd 3y ago
Steve Pavlina recommends i) waking at the same time every day, and ii) going to bed when you are tired. If you stick to i), ii) will eventually stabilize, although it may change from day to day. At the beginning you typically stay up too late for a few days. But after a while, with a consistent wake up, your body adapts to a beneficial sleep time. Of course, YMMV.
- ChoHag 3y ago
  After a while this may invert and you find that whatever time you go to sleep (within some degree of normal) you'll wake up precisely n hours later, for whatever value of n your body's settled on. No more need for an alarm clock.
smeej 3y ago
I don't think the point of the article was actually about sleep at all. It was about where to apply willpower to effect any kind of habit change. It's just an example in his case that the habit he wanted to build was going to sleep earlier, which he tried to do by just lying still in bed at the time he wanted to sleep, and resisting the urge to do anything else, first for two minutes, then for four. But he applies the same principle to exercise and other things, which is actually the point. This isn't a sleep prescription article.
- BowBun 3y ago
  Of course, why didn't I think of it? To change my bad habits, all I need to do is will it! Truly insightful.
  - rognjen 3y ago
    Did you read the article? You need to use your will to make very small steps? You can't _just_ will it....
  - smeej 3y ago
    Willpower isn't all or nothing. I can't will myself to go to sleep an hour earlier, and if I set that as my standard, I'll fail. But can I will myself to lie still in bed for two minutes? Much more likely. And, having succeeded and begun the building of a habit, can I lie still for 2.2 minutes the next night? Yes, I probably can. I thought the point was to rethink how and where we apply willpower and set ourselves up to succeed more often by moving the "succeeding" bar within the realm of our current willpower, rather than holding some standard of "success" that our willpower can never meet.
- Barrin92 3y ago
  willpower is a vacuous self-help concept as you have as little control over your 'willpower' as you have over your sleep. To pick OPs example, people with ADHD often have executive dysfunction. They're unable to follow these kinds of routines because their brains don't work like this. And ordinary people too just vary in their conscientiousness (which unlike willpower is a real, measurable trait), and that is going to determine how effective these kinds of regiments are for you. But you cannot simply change your basic psychological markup. For someone who simply cannot conform to a normal sleep schedule it may be much better to adjust their life to their sleep, not the other way around.
saiya-jin 3y ago
I wouldn't make such a drama out of it neither, those suggestions do work for most of people, but as usual HN crowd ain't very representative since a lot of brilliant people have these quirks that are also messing up their sleep.
drewcoo 3y ago
> Such articles are… really laughable On the other hand, wrong takes on something everyone feels they have expertise in are what cause the most comments here on HN.
- rognjen 3y ago
  By now I understand that people who agree and have gotten value from the article rarely comment.
gatopingado 3y ago
FYI, "Why we sleep" is not a reliable source [1]. [1] https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/ https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/
- uncharted9 3y ago
  Obligatory reply https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/sbcmACvB6DqYXYidL/counter-theses-on-sleep https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/sbcmACvB6DqYXYidL/counter-th...
swayvil 3y ago
To see with my own eyes, think with my own brain and learn from my own experiences? Outrageous! Give me the secondhand wisdom of authoritative strangers every time.
notjoemama 3y ago
On the heels of the thoroughness of your reply, I’d like to offer what I think research indicates is a universal technique; reduce or eliminate blue light in the evening and early morning. If your TV, tablet, or phone, has the ability to dim the screen in the evening, turn it on. Also check the settings and app stores for something that reduces the amount of blue in the screen’s output. Our species is conditioned into a consistent circadian rhythm by the rotation of our planet and the observance of light from the sun. This appears to be true regardless of location and culture and modern technology and modern indoor work environments have interrupted this natural cycle. Also, as we’re heading into fall, you may want to look for a “blue light” emitting lamp for winter if you find yourself in a more depressive state, of stuck in doldrums. The tilt of the planet reduces the amount of light in the northern hemisphere. The addition of blue light during normal waking hours has been shown to decrease sadness and seasonal depression. With it still being off season you may find them for less right now.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Swordfish12345 3y ago
> but now sleeps daily an average of 7-8hours What was the trick?

by larodi 3y ago

karaterobot 3y ago

> For hyperactive and hollering people (with ADHD and alike) it may even amount to torture. Seems like a slight overstatement.

jimmydddd 3y ago

Steve Pavlina recommends i) waking at the same time every day, and ii) going to bed when you are tired. If you stick to i), ii) will eventually stabilize, although it may change from day to day. At the beginning you typically stay up too late for a few days. But after a while, with a consistent wake up, your body adapts to a beneficial sleep time. Of course, YMMV.

ChoHag 3y ago
After a while this may invert and you find that whatever time you go to sleep (within some degree of normal) you'll wake up precisely n hours later, for whatever value of n your body's settled on. No more need for an alarm clock.

smeej 3y ago

I don't think the point of the article was actually about sleep at all. It was about where to apply willpower to effect any kind of habit change. It's just an example in his case that the habit he wanted to build was going to sleep earlier, which he tried to do by just lying still in bed at the time he wanted to sleep, and resisting the urge to do anything else, first for two minutes, then for four. But he applies the same principle to exercise and other things, which is actually the point. This isn't a sleep prescription article.

BowBun 3y ago
Of course, why didn't I think of it? To change my bad habits, all I need to do is will it! Truly insightful.
- rognjen 3y ago
  Did you read the article? You need to use your will to make very small steps? You can't _just_ will it....
- smeej 3y ago
  Willpower isn't all or nothing. I can't will myself to go to sleep an hour earlier, and if I set that as my standard, I'll fail. But can I will myself to lie still in bed for two minutes? Much more likely. And, having succeeded and begun the building of a habit, can I lie still for 2.2 minutes the next night? Yes, I probably can. I thought the point was to rethink how and where we apply willpower and set ourselves up to succeed more often by moving the "succeeding" bar within the realm of our current willpower, rather than holding some standard of "success" that our willpower can never meet.
Barrin92 3y ago
willpower is a vacuous self-help concept as you have as little control over your 'willpower' as you have over your sleep. To pick OPs example, people with ADHD often have executive dysfunction. They're unable to follow these kinds of routines because their brains don't work like this. And ordinary people too just vary in their conscientiousness (which unlike willpower is a real, measurable trait), and that is going to determine how effective these kinds of regiments are for you. But you cannot simply change your basic psychological markup. For someone who simply cannot conform to a normal sleep schedule it may be much better to adjust their life to their sleep, not the other way around.

saiya-jin 3y ago

I wouldn't make such a drama out of it neither, those suggestions do work for most of people, but as usual HN crowd ain't very representative since a lot of brilliant people have these quirks that are also messing up their sleep.

drewcoo 3y ago

> Such articles are… really laughable On the other hand, wrong takes on something everyone feels they have expertise in are what cause the most comments here on HN.

rognjen 3y ago
By now I understand that people who agree and have gotten value from the article rarely comment.

gatopingado 3y ago

FYI, "Why we sleep" is not a reliable source [1]. [1] https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/ https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/

uncharted9 3y ago
Obligatory reply https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/sbcmACvB6DqYXYidL/counter-theses-on-sleep https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/sbcmACvB6DqYXYidL/counter-th...

swayvil 3y ago

To see with my own eyes, think with my own brain and learn from my own experiences? Outrageous! Give me the secondhand wisdom of authoritative strangers every time.

notjoemama 3y ago

On the heels of the thoroughness of your reply, I’d like to offer what I think research indicates is a universal technique; reduce or eliminate blue light in the evening and early morning. If your TV, tablet, or phone, has the ability to dim the screen in the evening, turn it on. Also check the settings and app stores for something that reduces the amount of blue in the screen’s output. Our species is conditioned into a consistent circadian rhythm by the rotation of our planet and the observance of light from the sun. This appears to be true regardless of location and culture and modern technology and modern indoor work environments have interrupted this natural cycle. Also, as we’re heading into fall, you may want to look for a “blue light” emitting lamp for winter if you find yourself in a more depressive state, of stuck in doldrums. The tilt of the planet reduces the amount of light in the northern hemisphere. The addition of blue light during normal waking hours has been shown to decrease sadness and seasonal depression. With it still being off season you may find them for less right now.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Swordfish12345 3y ago

> but now sleeps daily an average of 7-8hours What was the trick?